How far is defensive?

[brownie0486]

I was always under the impression the Tueller drill was to show the very "minimum" distance one might have a chance at defending from a knife.

If it's the minimum you may be able to react succesfully against a knife, better yank the heat immediately if it's that or closer before he starts to move at you.

I don't believe many will be given the opportunity to see the intentions at that distance and we had better be prepared to go "unarmed" against the knife if it is that distance or less.

Going to the gun while be charged at 21 feet or less will only get you stabbed to death in my opinion. You'll only have one hand to fend off the attack when he reaches you and so are more vulnerable to damage than if you were prepared to defend with both hands ready.

The gun is not a crutch for unarmed skills which probably will be necessary under 21 feet. Mindset, training, and knowing when you can get to the gun in time to use it are key. Otherwise it's H2H until you can create the time and distance to draw it.

Brownie

 

[pax]

ksnecktieman,

You asked for a worst-case scenario, and everyone obliged. Now it sounds like you're a little annoyed that the suggested scenarios were all worst-case!

I don't think anyone suggested that you should carry a 300 Win Mag. The point of that tale was that there could be a morally and legally defensible shot at a very long distance indeed. This was probably in answer to the assertion from someone, early on, that at 20 yards you should always just take cover and call 911. That may be a good rule of thumb, but it isn't always true -- and you did ask for worst-case scenarios!

Every carry gun is a trade-off, a balance between concealability and shootability. Every shooter is going to have a different perspective on where the ideal balance falls.

Carry whatever makes you feel safe.

pax

So the man (we are not making this up) shot the washer five times with a .25-caliber revolver. We know what you're thinking. You're thinking: ''What a MORON! Bullets that small are only going to annoy a major appliance, possibly causing it to go berserk and threaten innocent people!'' Good point. We ourselves have seen a washing machine, with no provocation, shake its way violently halfway across a room. – Dave Barry

 

[Shootin' Buddy]

Hey, I wasn't suggesting you carry a 300 Win Mag as your primary ... just as a backup.



Don

 

[444]

Keep in miind that the Tueller drill distance of 21 feet involved people of some skill drawing from something like a duty rig. YMMV depending on your skill, and the gear you carry.

Long Distance: There is no way to predict if you will ever need to use a firearm to protect your life, let alone the circumstances. If you could predict if and when you needed to defend yourself you could also just avoid the situation.
I can easily come up with any number of senarios involving distances generally considered to be long handgun shots. The average grocery store isle is 25 yards. Has anyone ever flipped out, went to a grocery store and started randomly shooting people ? Yes, it happened here locally. Another good one might be something like a restruant shooting spree like the one that happened in Texas (I don't know the circumstances of that particular inicident). What if you are in a booth against the farthest wall and someone comes in and starts shooting people ? Can you "just" run away ?
The possibilities are endless.

"I am a 54 year old male, with nothing to make me a target, no flamboyant jewelry, no combination to the local bank vault, no multi million dollar bank account, I am not a target..?????"

The problem here is that you are assuming that someone needs a logical and rational reason to attack you. They don't. Do you think that some guy who goes around randomly shooting someone has picked out the targets based on a resume' ? If some guy is robbing the local 7-11 and you happen to be in there, do you think you will be invisible just because you don't fit the criteria of someone you think should be a victim of crime ? If some guy wants to jack a car do you think he cares who you are ?

 

[ksnecktieman]

ok, my description of myself was to show that I am not a "specific" target. I will not be singled out, if I am attacked I will be just a random victim. Maybe I have been alone too long, my three daughters are already raising their own families, and the ex wives have moved on to better men.

In an attack on myself I can not imagine a scenario that I will not be able to aim at a shirt button, or a nose (aim small, miss small). With me as the victim I can not imagine shooting at anything beyond 50 feet (sixteen yards?)

My duty to my fellow man If I am present for a massive attack, the two nuts with rifles in the mall, for instance, is to find cover and call in police. Hide behind the brick planters in the mall promenade, and provide tactical information to responding officers on cell phone. Mouse gun in hand. If a shooter gets close enough for a head shot with my P.32 I can take him out and arm myself with his rifle. Taking on a rifleman or two with ANY handgun would be foolhardy. I would expect a center of mass hit to encounter body armor.

I will do what I can, when I can, in a bad situation, but I am armed to protect myself, not to protect society in general. There is no doubt that I would have nightmares and regrets over all the dead sheeple, the ones that chose to pay taxes to hire police, instead of accepting responsibility for their own security.

If I came off as irritated with the responses I got I apologise. I asked for opinions, and I did not mean to start a fight.

 

[ThreadKiller]

So much to think about....

Tim

 

[Evil_Ed]

Couple of things...

Tueller (sp?) Drill: Do it with a paint gun (there is a nice conversion kit to let a regular pistol fire a paint cartridge for simulations). Check where the person is hit if you actually tag them with a shot and realize that unless you hit them between the upper row of teeth and the middle of the forehead that they will still keep moving and fighting until the bleed out. Now, think about how much damage they can do to you with all that adrenaline and that nasty little knife. Slash wounds are horrendous. I've seen one up close, have you? A heavy slash can do serious crippling/lethal damage to someone...something like 80% of people who are shot survive according to some statistics I have read. You want to bet your life on your performance in a controlled circumstance under ideal conditions?


Distance shots with a "mouse" gun: Practice, that's what the range is for and it will save your ??? later. I can hit a paper plate from 15 yards consistently with my Makarov 9x18 and my Kel Tec .380 half of those would be within a smaller birthday cake plate sized circle. I practice at those distances because it trains my eye and my hand to make me a better marksman. I also practice at standard gunfight distances and a few places in between. You never know what the circumstances are going to be for you when the SHTF so it is best to prepare as wide a range of skills as possible.

My .02 YMMV...

 

[entropy]

"I will do what I can, when I can, in a bad situation, but I am armed to protect myself, not to protect society in general. There is no doubt that I would have nightmares and regrets over all the dead sheeple, the ones that chose to pay taxes to hire police, instead of accepting responsibility for their own security."

"My duty to my fellow man If I am present for a massive attack, the two nuts with rifles in the mall, for instance, is to find cover and call in police."

Am I the only one to notice the irony here?

You disdain those who rely on the police to protect them, yet your reaction in the presented scenario would be to call the police?

Any of the sheeple could do that!

Why don't you just didi outta there and leave the wife and 2.6 kids to the nuts with the rifles?

 

[twoblink]

In Wrestling, we had a coach from Iowa state come teach us how to do a "far shoot" (shoot as in, taking down the guy, not with a gun)..

When I was in my prime, about 10 feet in 1 step/leap was not a problem. I could grab you in less than a split second and slam you to the ground in that distance. If I can, and I'm not that big or fast, a BG can if properly trained to do so in more than that distance.

So 25 feet is probably a good guess of "life threatening"..

Unless the guy's got a rifle. Then 250 yards is "life threatening".

Unless the guy's got a scoped Rifle that's a 30Cal or bigger.

Then "500 yards" is "life threatening"...

Unless the guy's got a scope and a 50Cal BMG,
then "1 mile" is "life threatening"

Unless the guy's got a SCUD missile... etc...

It's relative to the weapon and threat at hand.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

ksnecktieman,

You may not believe that you need to be able to make a 20-yard shot, but you may want to develop the capability anyway and consider other scenarios as well.

Based on the information you provided in your last post I would say you have made a thorough analysis of what your defensive needs are most likely to be. These are the parameters that should drive your selection of equipment and the focus of the majority of your practice.

However, regardless of your anticipated needs, it is necessary to explore the limits of your skills and equipment. It is not uncommon to find oneself confronted with a situation which was not given proper consideration. I believe the North Hollywood shootout was already offered as an example.

Only by considering all possibilities can someone truly consider themselves prepared. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

 

[artherd]

I don't think anyone suggested that you should carry a 300 Win Mag.

Of course not, .338 Lapua has a much longer effective range, and is chambered in many guns of similar weight

You just never know.

But just having a pistol (ANY pistol) is ages better than nothing.

 

[444]

At a shooting school I have attended several times, they ask the question, How good do I need to be ?
Which they correctly point out begs the question, How good is good enough ?

I am sure everyone has their own answers for those questions. My personal answer is that you are never good enough. You have never had enough training. You have never explored every possible senario. You have never reached the point that you can out perform your equipment on a consistant basis.
I can easily beat any of my friends in any shooting match they or I can come up with with any weapon. Easily beat them. Yet all I have to do is go to a local match or a shooting school and see that I am woefully inadequate.