How fast do you push your cast lead?

[Palladan44]

Are there any rules of thumb with brinell hardness of cast lead alloys and velocity?
If i could guess it would be something like:
(Based on manufacturer's recommendations)
BH 12- 900fps
BH 15- 1100fps
BH 18 - 1300fps
BH 22- 1500fps

Obviously bullet "fit" is a big factor in wheelguns too.
Just looking for opinions. Trying to learn more on the subject.
I have had several loadings over the years that are will randomly lead up the barrel, and others not.

I personally load 357 mag and 44 magnum and use 158 and 240 gr lead bullets with brinell hardnesses of 15-18

 

[AJC1]

I powder coat so my input may not be what your looking for but I shoot bhn 12 for medium magnum loads in 357. The bullets for rifle are the same but sport gas checks. Lee uses a pressure chart that you may find helpful. The modern trend is to go very hard and I just dont feel its needed. Elmer Keith had different ideas as well.

 

[Riomouse911]

I’m in the same velocity leagues as you are for lead-lube bullets.

Powder coated, I’ll stay within 100-150 fps or so faster for each category. So far so good, no leading has been noted yet .

Plated can possibly go a bit faster depending on the manufacturer, 1200 fps is about max. Some makers claim to have plated bullets that are “double plated” so they can push the speeds up to 1500 fps or so.

Stay safe.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I go up to about 1200-1250.
All I cast is straight wheel weight alloy, or about 11 BHN.

I have no leading to speak of.

 

[brewer12345]

I go up to about 1900 FPS with a tumble lubed, gas checked rifle bullet. No need to push handgun bullets that fast, so I don't I usually cast clip on wheel weights plus 1 or 2% of tin, so call it BHN of 12. Powder coat most of my handgun bullets.

 

[reddog81]

With powder coated bullets you can probably move up one rung on your scale pretty easily. BHN of 12 can go the 1100 FPS, 15 to 1300 FPS, etc.

 

[LoonWulf]

I run 240mbcs out my .44mag SBH at almost 1480-90ish...think those are supposed to be at 18?

They lead pretty bad in my 44 special at just under 1k....but shoot well so I just clean the lead out every trip or three.

 

[MEHavey]

I will offer that a sealed chamber (rifles and automatic pistols) are a whole different animal compared to the gap-jumping/forcing-cone environment in a revolver as relating to leading.

In such sealed environments,
- I can shoot PC'd plain-based/pure lead (BN-5) at 25,000 psi/1,900 fps (rifle) and leave an absolutely mirror-finish bore on single dry patch.
- When ALOX'd and gas checked, I regularly run AR-15 cast #2 at 43,000 psi/2,500fps

I have never seen the need/advantage of anything harder than Lyman #2 / BN-15.
Just the opposite in fact. Softer the better/tailored to pressure.


,

 

[.38 Special]

These days I'm using a lot of 1-16 tin-lead, just like Elmer and Skeeter did. That's about 11 bhn. My "standard" handgun loads run about 950 to 1000 fps and assuming the revolver is dimensionally correct and the bullet fits properly, I expect a slight bit of leading. This is the sort of leading that does not accumulate beyond a certain point, but rather forms a light coat in the bore and then stays that way regardless of how many rounds are fired.

When velocities increase I expect a bit more leading, which sometimes has be scraped out every few hundred rounds. Generally once I get to 1250 fps or so I switch to gaschecks. I have never been able to drive a checked bullet hard enough in a revolver to generate any leading at all.

And I have zero interest in powdercoated bullets. All of the above is with uncoated bullets and, in almost every case, LBT soft lube.

 

[.38 Special]

- When ALOX'd and gas checked, I regularly run AR-15 cast #2 at 43,000 psi/25,000fps

25,000 fps, even with a gascheck, is pretty impressive.

 

[Ru4real]

Your question implies velocity is the primary cause of leading. It is not the primary cause. Look at your bore. Is the leading occurring at the beginning of the barrel?

This is where the velocity is the lowest. Leading occurs here because there is too much heat on the base of the bullet. Hence, bullet fit, gas checks, coatings, hardness and powder type can help prevent leading. The cause of leading is the heat and pressure required to get to a higher velocity, not the velocity itself.

Think along these lines, and you can make better cast bullet / coating / gas check / powder choices to eliminate leading.

 

[BWS]

2500fps with varmint grade accuracy,say <3/4" @100 is fairly attainable with a decent bolt rig. From there,the "climb" gets right much steeper. Bullet,rotational balance becomes the barrier or major stumbling block. The alloy's toughness is on the table here but,along with lube isn't nearly as important as folks think. I run so little lube on bullets approaching 3k that it's rather humorous. Just the tiny space above the GC,gets some VERY basic BW/vaseline put in there.... that's it.

Revolvers, are a special breed because of the gap and the general disconnect between chamber and leade. But "leading" isn't what is gonna stop you..... pressure is. You can only beat on a revolver so much before it's just plain dumb,get a bigger hammer sort of thing.

Good luck with your project.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Based on manufacturer's recommendations)
BH 12- 900fps
BH 15- 1100fps
BH 18 - 1300fps
BH 22- 1500fps

This is completely incorrect.

I am running straight wheel weights, at ~11BnH, to almost 1900fps in a sewer pipe bore 91/30 Mosin. Regular lube, not coated.
Some are running much faster.

As others have stated, fit is much, much more important than hardness.

One needs the lead soft enough to upset (obdurate) and fill the bore.

Too hard, it won't obdurate, leading ensues.
Too soft, at higher speeds the lead can't hold the rifling, it strips out . Poor accuracy and leading ensues.

Don't get caught up in the hardness game. Most commercial casters use a too hard alloy, simply because it travels better in the mail.

 

[41 Mag]

I haven't shot s lot using commercial cast. Those iI did use were mainly from Cast Performance or Montana Bullet Works. I ran those pretty hard in my 454 and 41 magnum

I started out casting my own about a decade or so back, and used pretty much straight clip on WW for alloy pouring the Lee 300gr RF and gas checking it.

Since then I've purchased a couple dozen molds in mostly hollow point handgun calibers and developed my own alloy blends to accommodate them. One for velocities up to about 1100fps, and the other does well for the magnums up to about 1600fps. Above that its straight WW.

I have had my share of fully leading the barrel, but it was from testing alloy and lube. I've shut it down with as few as 4 shots, or as is the case with my 45acp or Colt run them till they are crudded up from the lube or soot and clean up the outsides, and oil the rest.

Most of what I shoot uses conventional lubed and a small portion I powder coat. I use the same charge weights with either so I don't have to worry about it. There's more to shooting cast than I expected and I have learned a ton. Nothing is for certain with a specific firearm, each is an entity of its own.

 

[MEHavey]

25,000 fps, even with a gascheck, is pretty impressive.

Written at 3 AM (corrected at 08:40)

 

[Palladan44]

From what i gather, when leading occurs in my 357 im thinking the bullet fits too loosely. A 158grain run of the mill LSWC made by a small company called F&F with blue lube on it and hardness of 15 starts leading the barrel around 1,200 fps. Ill just have to make sure i keep them to target velocities 1000 and below in my model 28.

I have a new batch of 240 grain LSWC for 44, and a hardness of 16-17 which ill give a try. These seem to have a tighter fit in my Dan Wesson then my Model 29. Ill work up loads and see what happens.

 

[PapaG]

Fit and obduration should be the two factors. I have gotten horrible leading with bhn22-24 in a mirror bore 44 at 1100 and .429 dia. 431 eliminated it. 30-30, lead with 311291 at .308 (Ed Yards recommendation, and clean at .310, wheelweights). Lots more examples but I like a metal soft enough to bump up with moderate loads and normally start on the slightly larger size.
I load cast for about 12 different cartridges.

 

[Barbaroja]

Lot of good things brought up here.

Fit is king
Hardness is less important.
Be willing it experiment to find what works for a particular gun.
Oh and slug your damn guns people! BEFORE you buy your precast bullets or the sizing die you THINK you need.

My Blackhawk in 41mag is my best cast shooter ( also have spent the most time on it) I usually cast with water quenched range lead and have been able to push plain based bullets to full jacketed velocities without leading using a 60/40 paraffin/ petroleum jelly mix as lube.
I’ve also begun experimenting with powder coating. And if your like me without a lube/size machine. It’s a great option.
Currently starting work on a load for my savage 340 in 30-30 with the lee 170gn fp powder coated and gas checked with charge of h335. Goal is to find an accurate load around 2000fps. High hopes for this load.

 

[Palladan44]

If you have leading occurring in your bore, rather than shooting more lead, making the leading possibly worse, is there any harm in finishing up the range trip with a cylinder full of jacketed hot loads? Those seem to clean the bore right out at the end of the range trip. 240grain JHPs over 23.5gr. WIN 296
Its what I tend to do. It certainly doesnt solve lead fouling problem, but cleans it up.
Is it possible to get a KB from a leaded up bore that isnt properly dealt with?

 

[Barbaroja]

If you have leading occurring in your bore, rather than shooting more lead, making the leading possibly worse, is there any harm in finishing up the range trip with a cylinder full of jacketed hot loads? Those seem to clean the bore right out at the end of the range trip. 240grain JHPs over 23.5gr. WIN 296
Its what I tend to do. It certainly doesnt solve lead fouling problem, but cleans it up.
Is it possible to get a KB from a leaded up bore that isnt properly dealt with?

That is a quick way to scrub the barrel for sure. I’ve never had any issues with it and I’d imagine you would have to let lead build up way beyond what one would consider just a leaded barrel before you ran into problems.

 

[Ru4real]

...is there any harm in finishing up the range trip with a cylinder full of jacketed hot loads? Those seem to clean the bore right out at the end of the range trip....

I’m currently doing this as well. It doesn’t benefit most of my guns, because they are not leading. But it became habit forming a while back.

However, one 357 has been leading and this helps cleaning, for sure. In normal times I’d buy 0.360” cast for this one 357.

 

[Jack B.]

I have used Oregon Trail, True Shot cast lead bullets for a long time and the bullets are 355gr. WNFP GC. .476 Diam I push them to right at 1300 fps. Gun is a Ruger Super Red hawk 480 Ruger 7.5 inch barrel. I've never had any leading problems when using GC bullets. I was also given some lead bullets from an unknown source for 44 magnum .430 Diam around 240 gr. that also had GC's on them. Don't known hardness of the lead on those . No leading there either. Didn't have a crono when I shot them so I don't have fps number but I did push them pretty hard. It's made me a big fan of gas checks on cast lead bullets

 

[Charlie98]

Your question implies velocity is the primary cause of leading. It is not the primary cause.

Correct... bore fit is paramount. I consider bullet hardness second to that.... only because you can't drive soft lead to 2000fps no matter the bullet to bore fit, etc.

I regularly drive Montana Cast 18BHN gas-checked bullets to 2200fps in my .348WCF without problems, sized to .349" for the bore.

I regularly drive generic commercially cast 215grn bevel-base cheapo .41MAG bullets to 1500fps and higher in my Marlin 1894. I've fired 800 of them over a weekend without leading problems. I'm lucky the .410" bullets are correct for the Marlin's bore...

Introducing the barrel/cylinder gap can cause issues beyond leading, however. I have an old Ruger in .45 Colt, it was never very accurate with any bullet, but particularly cast. I had the cylinder throats reamed a few years ago... and it materially improved the accuracy of cast bullets. I suspect if I reamed the barrel's forcing cone I would see additional benefits.

 

[Palladan44]

I realize many of you cast your own.
I dont, but im thinking about it.

It seems a tighter fit is more advantageous than a looser fit. If thats the case, how does reaming a bore help? This is an interesting science, and im an avid handloader. This is just the next step in the discipline for me. I do know that a properly crafted load, and a properly sized cast bullet combo is arguably the most accurate handgun round there is.
Ive seen the results in my own shooting, and would like to build on it.

 

[Palladan44]

Another question, what is a good lead hardness for deer hunting? 357 magnum, 158 grain LSWC. Or 44 mag 240gr LSWC
Too soft and too much deformation.
Too hard and FMJ- like performance.(even worse than above)

I do know hardcast is preferred over anything for dangerous game on large animals, because its durability and deep penetration qualities.
Even FMJ ammo with its soft pure lead swaged core deforms way easier than hard cast alloy.
Where would you say "dangerous game" class alloy begins on the brinell scale?