How to get killed with your own gun.

JohnKSa

JohnKSa

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1. Carry it so others can see it and don't employ any sort of retention to prevent someone from taking it.

2. When someone grabs your gun, run after them even though you're unarmed and try to get it back.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/georgia-...customer-shoots-him-death-parking-lot-reports

"Witnesses told police that Orr saw a gun in Dykes’ waistline and grabbed it from his pants just before 9 a.m. on Friday. Dykes reportedly chased Orr outside and a struggle ensued before the teen shot and killed Dykes."

Be smart out there folks.

If you're going to open carry you need some kind of retention to slow down the folks who see an openly carried gun as an opportunity. You'll also need some kind of plan/training to deal with a situation where someone tries to take it and is temporarily delayed by the retention device.

If you are defeated and the gun is taken, you need a plan for what to do. Maybe that plan is to try to get away and call 911. Maybe it's to access a backup gun. But it shouldn't be to chase down an armed person while you are unarmed.
 
Everyone who carries a gun needs to train on retention. I’m not aware of any CCW course that teaches retention but it’s a vital skill to have even if you are carrying concealed.

If you invest in a retention holster you need to train with it, I mean really train, 500+ draws before you carry in that holster.
 
Jeff White said:
Everyone who carries a gun needs to train on retention. I’m not aware of any CCW course that teaches retention but it’s a vital skill to have even if you are carrying concealed.

If you invest in a retention holster you need to train with it, I mean really train, 500+ draws before you carry in that holster.
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By any chance can you recommend any reliable videos that demonstrate retention techniques?
 
old lady new shooter said:
By any chance can you recommend any reliable videos that demonstrate retention techniques?
Click to expand...
Techniques are very simple. When/if you feel someone grab your gun, the very first thing you do to react is place your hands on top of the gun to prevent a draw in the first place. The retention is designed to delay, not prevent, an unauthorized draw. After that, be as violent as possible to pull away and keep that handgun with you.
 
There used to be a big debate about open carry and it’s deferent effect but as it is becoming more popular it also seems like it’s getting clearer that you really make yourself a target to a lot of people.

The book isn’t necessarily closed, but it appears to be a worse idea than I would have thought. I never really thought it was great idea and defended it to some extent but it seems like a weekly occurrence I see something like this.

To the point of the op if you’re going to OC you really really need a good retention holster.
 
I get all of the 2A stuff about being able to open carry and that's all fine and dandy. To each his own. The less attention I bring upon myself the better my chances are surviving out in the wild. The element of surprise usually has advantages believe it or not...
 
I am not in favor of banning open carry, but I believe it's foolish in most situations. For all the blather about "SA" it's impossible to create a flawless 360 degree bubble of perfect awareness at all times. Anyone watching you while you're OCing just needs to bide their time and wait for their moment. Tactically I find CCW vastly more logical in nearly all public settings. The only time I ever OC is when I'm in the woods hiking or camping, and even then I'll cover the sidearm with a garment if I can while I'm in more public areas (parking lots, busy trailheads, etc). While deep in the woods there's rarely anyone around and speed of getting to the gun is paramount in bear country.
 
When I started holsters were really basic it wasn't until the 90s that we began getting real retention holsters the kind that make it very difficult to snatch without training. That being said I have NEVER opened carried and I do not intend to either I do not flash wads of cash either I drive a 9 year old vehicle that needs a wash job and could probably use some new tires too. I do one thing every week I practice 50 rounds with both pistols which I alternate carry with.that is rain or shine hot or cold every week
 
If you ever met me you would never know I was armed as I never present myself in situations that could end up hazardous like leaving your back to the entrance of the establishment when eating common sense things like that.
 
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About retention holsters, careful note on Serpas. There are too many reported accidents with them. In TX, we had quite a few. I've seen new folks buy them and then be horribly scary in a match. The SO had to grab one guy who clearly couldn't release and keep his finger from the trigger in the motion.

Open carry is foolish except out in the field, I've done it when hunting on private land. Go to http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/ and search on open carry for a good set of discussions.

I haven't seen a civilian open carrier (granted it's not that many) that couldn't be easily disarmed with a little thought and surprise.
 
Well, the other thing is he really doubled down on being foolish, and it got him killed. Once the thief was running away, he was now armed, and the victim was unarmed. Since he was running away, it was clear that at the time he rabbited, he was content with his successful theft and had no intention at that time of harming his victim any further. The victim could have survived by taking the L at that point and calling the police rather than chasing the now-armed thief while himself disarmed.

The victim also made it hard for himself by apparently carrying his gun in the one position where he could not observe it himself. I will say it's not clear to me if he actually was open carrying or if his gun was just poorly concealed, if that makes sense.
 
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GEM said:
About retention holsters, careful note on Serpas. There are too many reported accidents with them. In TX, we had quite a few. I've seen new folks buy them and then be horribly scary in a match. The SO had to grab one guy who clearly couldn't release and keep his finger from the trigger in the motion.

Open carry is foolish except out in the field, I've done it when hunting on private land. Go to http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/ and search on open carry for a good set of discussions.

I haven't seen a civilian open carrier (granted it's not that many) that couldn't be easily disarmed with a little thought and surprise.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I stay away from SERPAs. I much prefer thumb brake holsters. Not trying to end up like Tex Grebner.
 
Why the assumption the victim was open-carrying? It could have been simply crappy concealment or a cover garment that rode up and displayed the gun.

"Witnesses told police that Orr saw a gun in Dykes’ waistline and grabbed it from his pants"

" ...the suspect "snatched a firearm from the victim's back waistband."

Have now seen a few accounts of this incident, no mention in any whether the handgun was in a holster.

I've also seen nothing indicating this was a handgun carried openly, or simply ineffective concealment.

Clearly, giving chase was stupid. But unclear information as to the initial actions of the incident.

And yeah, SERPAs suck. One of the best retention systems (for duty or open carry) is the Safariland ALS holsters.
 
LocoGringo said:
Techniques are very simple. When/if you feel someone grab your gun, the very first thing you do to react is place your hands on top of the gun to prevent a draw in the first place. The retention is designed to delay, not prevent, an unauthorized draw. After that, be as violent as possible to pull away and keep that handgun with you.
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In my case the disparity in strength between me and the prospective gun-grabber would likely be huge, I was hoping there might be some trick I could use.

Well, not a perfect world.
 
JDeere said:
I get all of the 2A stuff about being able to open carry and that's all fine and dandy. To each his own. The less attention I bring upon myself the better my chances are surviving out in the wild. The element of surprise usually has advantages believe it or not...
Click to expand...
I feel a bit envious when I see someone open carrying but for me it would be almost suicidal. Do not want to risk losing my one equalizer.
 
old lady new shooter said:
In my case the disparity in strength between me and the prospective gun-grabber would likely be huge, I was hoping there might be some trick I could use.

Well, not a perfect world.
Click to expand...
There are no tricks. It amounts to being aware of your surroundings not letting people get close to you, keeping your gun side away from someone you are talking with, if you have to be in a crowd where people are bumping up against each other. protect your weapon by keeping an elbow or arm over it. If someone grabs for your weapon you are in a deadly force encounter and you need to respond accordingly. More years ago than I care to admit I was assigned foot patrol at a high school football game. This required us to walk through the crowd. I kept my strong side elbow resting on the grip of my weapon. At half time we were walking through the crowd when I felt someone bump my elbow and tug on my weapon. I came down with my strong hand, gripped his wrist and took him to the ground. To my surprise it was another officer's teenage son (my best friend on the department) who thought it would be a fuuny joke. After the game was over I told his father about it and the response I got was; "You should have broken his arm."

A little awareness in how you interact with people will go a long way to preventing a snatch attempt.
 
Jeff White said:
There are no tricks. It amounts to being aware of your surroundings not letting people get close to you, keeping your gun side away from someone you are talking with, if you have to be in a crowd where people are bumping up against each other. protect your weapon by keeping an elbow or arm over it. If someone grabs for your weapon you are in a deadly force encounter and you need to respond accordingly. More years ago than I care to admit I was assigned foot patrol at a high school football game. This required us to walk through the crowd. I kept my strong side elbow resting on the grip of my weapon. At half time we were walking through the crowd when I felt someone bump my elbow and tug on my weapon. I came down with my strong hand, gripped his wrist and took him to the ground.
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I could grab the guy's wrist, but the only thing I can think of that *I* could do as the next step might be a hard kick on the back of his ankle. If I got lucky I guess it might throw him off balance.

To my surprise it was another officer's teenage son (my best friend on the department) who thought it would be a fuuny joke. After the game was over I told his father about it and the response I got was; "You should have broken his arm."

A little awareness in how you interact with people will go a long way to preventing a snatch attempt.
Click to expand...
 
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bdickens said:
Regardless, the outcome is the same.
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Indeed.

However, there still remains a big difference between intentional open carry, inadvertent printing or sloppy concealment.

Depending on the victim's intent and mode of carry (holster? Mexican carry?), which we will probably never know, there are tactical, practical and legal lessons to be learned either way. So it's a shame that the information is lacking, as we could all use a concrete example to bolster our own opinions on the topic of open carry or mode of concealed carry.
 
old lady new shooter said:
In my case the disparity in strength between me and the prospective gun-grabber would likely be huge, I was hoping there might be some trick I could use.

Well, not a perfect world.
Click to expand...
There are no "tricks"...some techniques, MAYBE, but once it becomes physical, it's physical and it's a fight for your life. Best thing is if you can't retain your gun while carrying openly, don't carry open.

Edit to add: I didn't even see Jeff's reply. Glad I didn't make a fool of myself this time and say something contrary.

Edit to add more: Don't play fair...go for sensitive areas like...testicles.
 
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