How to get killed with your own gun.

[The Night Rider]

Here's a video of an unsuccessful gun grab. Again, it started with the gun being exposed. This time it was an off-duty cop breaking up a verbal altercation. One person remained behind after the others dispersed, and when the off-duty cop turned to leave, he went for her gun. She reacted immediately and vigorously...

This video starts after the others have dispersed and shows the attempted grab. You can find other videos showing the lead in. She exposes her gun when she shows her badge and identifies herself as an off-duty cop--that's not in this video but can be seen in some of the others.

Sign in is required since youtube considers the video to be graphic.

The interesting thing about that video is how many times she had to tell people to call the police and it sounded like some of them were arguing with her about it

 

[Styx]

Didn't read the whole thread.

Not a fan of OC although I've done it couple times. 99.9% of the time I'm CC.

As far as the holsters, the couple of times I have OC'd it was with a Serpa. They're actually a great LII holster if operated correctly.

Here's a primitive video I made working with the Serpa...



ETA- YouTube deleted it.

I own a Serpa holster too. I also don't see an issue with it.

 

[Styx]

Many people, good and bad, have way too much confidence in their hand to hand skills. Skill maintenance takes constant work. People just say "I'd do this if it were really that bad" without really drilling the skill to a: get proficient and b: see if it really works. It takes training and practice, and if you train with highly skilled people in realistic scenarios, you'll realize how vulnerable you really are, armed or not.

I agree and especially so with older and/or out of shape guys. I've seen bigger, taller, and highly trained in MMA women get taken down and embarrassed by untrained men. At a certain age, some men will be the equivalent to a female when going up against a younger and stronger male...

OCing and assuming a retention holster or a few training classes will save you is foolish IMHO. There always will be someone bigger and stronger, and I've seen bigger, stronger, and trained male fighters get knocked out by lesser than as well. It only takes one punch... As I also stated earlier, a lot of the people who are being robbed for their firearms are being held at gun point, so your fighting skills will be null and void at that point.

A lot of people seem to be way to over confident about their abilities, and seems to always think up best case scenarios of how they believe things will go down if they're in a gun grab situation. Then they seek out an anecdotal case to confirm their bias. It seems to me that it just makes more sense not to OC in the first place.

 

[GEM]

Good post and it's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[2] whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge

Some argument about it, as usual, but it's a good rule of thumb in these debates. I'm an older individual and hear what you are saying.

I recall in a knife usage class, a rather large student said that people don't mess with him because he is big. The instructor who was small in a FOF, stood in front of him in conversation, whipped out a training blade and 'stabbed' him myriad times, saying that some smaller people like the challenge.

I have no desire to announce I have a nice gun on me. I recall in the market a fat old belly hanging man (not that I should criticize), who was wearing a tight Glock black t-shirt with a Glock logo and a big old Sneaky Pete Holster. Free Gun Sign if someone wanted it and planned a bit. Think he could get the gun out if someone charged him in the parking lot at a closer distance?

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Mark Middleton

 

[Old Dog]

A lot of people seem to be way to over confident about their abilities, and seems to always think up best case scenarios of how they believe things will go down if they're in a gun grab situation. Then they seek out an anecdotal case to confirm their bias.

There is what we used to call the "gun as talisman" effect. To many, the thought process is that simply having a gun is enough.

As an aside, too many officers I trained over the years had too much confidence in the gear they carried on their belts (batons, OC, TASER, pistol) and when, inevitably, the time came to go hands on, the situation usually turned into a poop-show.

 

[Old Dog]

a big old Sneaky Pete Holster.

Wait, what? There's people who actually use those?

Free Gun Sign if someone wanted it and planned a bit.

Pretty much what I think about those things... Nothing "sneaky" about them.

 

[GEM]

The only time I saw one. I was tempted to say something but didn't. Why should I? It's his life. I recall being in a TX BBQ place. A big belly OC guy with a sausage sack holster came in. Two LEOs were eating and Belly man had to go over and chat with them. Since I doubt he was an officer, probably just posturing as one of the 'armed' good guys. When he left, there was eye rolling and some chuckling head shakes.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Wait, what? There's people who actually use those?

If the sneaky pete is the squared-off thing that looks like a phone case, I know a guy who uses one. He is ex-IDF Special Forces and currently works as a security guard for a Jewish school, and moonlights as an event security guard for synagogues. I think on the school campus he OC's a larger gun with a regular holster but at synagogue events if he's working inside he will use the sneaky pete, at about 2 o'clock. He's a pretty big guy with a cool head and fast reflexes.

 

[Styx]

There is what we used to call the "gun as talisman" effect. To many, the thought process is that simply having a gun is enough.

As an aside, too many officers I trained over the years had too much confidence in the gear they carried on their belts (batons, OC, TASER, pistol) and when, inevitably, the time came to go hands on, the situation usually turned into a poop-show.

I completely agree with everything you said. No argument from me... I'd like to add that some training on how to fight may make a difference. It might increase the probability of success, but it's still basically a game of Russian roulette of whether you win a physical altercation IMHO. I think many need to keep that in mind instead of being over confident and having a false sense of security in their fighting abilities because they took a handful of training classes at one point of time or another.

Some training is always better than no training and will increase the probability of being successful; however, allowing that training to make you become overconfident may put you in a worse situation. Some gun owners prepare for the worse, and always expect the best based on how they talk and the scenario they have in their heads.

 

[westernrover]

Few comments:

Carry a backup gun so that if one is grabbed, dropped, or otherwise lost control of, you're not unarmed.

Some people prefer a more complex manual-of-arms (ie. single-actions with safeties) to delay the grabber from firing. This depends on the grabber being ignorant and of course it's only meaningful if the grabber intends or attempts to shoot (they might just want to run away with the gun). If they are about to shoot, step into their gun arm. They're not familiar with the gun and the greatest probability is that they'll shoot to the left (right handed) or to the right (left handed). Personally, I don't carry guns with safeties, but revolvers with a long, heavy double-action pull. Does that help? I don't want to count on it.

Thumbs-down. Straight-thumb grips are popular, but they're easier to disarm by grabbing the barrel/slide and torquing into the thumbs. Wrap your thumbs and you'll have better retention. Save the straight-thumbs for IPSC/USPSA/IDPA. Try it with a training gun (plastic blue gun). Point the thumbs forward and have someone torque the muzzle toward the thumbs. Then try it with wrapped thumbs.

 

[Howland937]

A thought occured to me earlier this afternoon that may or may not be relevant to this discussion (and if it's not relevant, I fully understand it will be removed as such...or spun into a different thread).

My days are spent repairing vehicles for all sorts of folks. Outside of the home, a personal vehicle is quite possibly where the majority of people are most comfortable. In the process of entering and exiting customers' vehicles, I've encountered various weapons and it's quite the regular occurrence.

Knives, clubs, miniature baseball bats, pepper spray, stun guns and a few firearms. Usually tucked into the door pocket or between the seat and console. In the case of an elderly lady today, it was a piece of 3/4" steel pipe with a coupler threaded onto the end. She's on oxygen and uses a walker. The talk of retention made this stick with me. She'd have absolutely zero chance of protecting herself with this weapon in this placement.

It doesn't matter what the weapon is. If we don't have the ability to make sure we keep the weapon in our hands, we're likely just providing an easy path for it to be used against us.

 

[Elkins45]

I carry an automatic knife with a dagger blade on my off side. My gun is IWB on my strong side. In the event someone figures out I have a gun and grabs for it I’ve practiced to grab the gun and push down with my strong hand while deploying the knife with the other. Assuming the attack is from behind the plan is to alternate stabbing high/low over my shoulder and waist height. For a frontal attack the target is the arm grabbing the gun. Can’t get a grip if your tendons are severed.

 

[shafter]

I carry an automatic knife with a dagger blade on my off side. My gun is IWB on my strong side. In the event someone figures out I have a gun and grabs for it I’ve practiced to grab the gun and push down with my strong hand while deploying the knife with the other. Assuming the attack is from behind the plan is to alternate stabbing high/low over my shoulder and waist height. For a frontal attack the target is the arm grabbing the gun. Can’t get a grip if your tendons are severed.

This is one of the best retention techniques there is and it's taught by the best trainers on the planet. The good thing is it works well even for those who don't have alot of physical strength.

 

[Riomouse911]

I “open carried” for decades with my duty sidearm, half of my time was in a uniform and half without. If I had a dollar for every eye that went from my face then down to my gun/holster during my workday, I could have retired many years ago.

It was beaten into your head in the academy to always be aware of your sidearm. You learn to hold that elbow down over the grip, or sometimes even put a hand on your gun when in tight, like the high school story related earlier. In a snatch attempt, even grabbing the bottom of the holster and pulling up hard drives the grip into your side, keeping the gun in place so you can fight with the off hand or grab a back up gun/knife to defend yourself. It’s not fun training for those things, you get bruised and sore as you get yanked around and hit the mats. But it’s better than dead, so we did retention training at least annually.

Awareness is key. Dozens and dozens of times over the years I let gangsters, parolees and other thugs know I was aware of them as their eyes scanned my belt. “Up here, mister” would get them to look me in the eyes and let them know I wasn’t oblivious. Best part is this almost always stopped their gazing at the holster.

I don’t know if it stopped any possible attacks, but my gun never was grabbed for so maybe my attention to them did prevent such stupidity. I’d like to think it did, anyway.

IMHO discrete ccw is the only way to carry for anyone not paid to be in uniform. I get it that some folks like to broadcast the freedom thing, I am a firearms rights supporter, too. But hanging a gun out in a holster is just asking for attention that the open carrier will undoubtedly attract; from good guy and from bad. Myself? I choose to be as plain and faceless as possible so my stuff is concealed.

I spent 9.5 years on our SRT unit doing dignitary and witness protection details, we trained constantly on spotting threats by “actions, looks and lumps.” When things were spotted, we acted on addressing them before things went awry. I don’t claim to be a wiz at it, but as an individual and in a team we got pretty darn good at keeping people away from harm. Even in a crowd, by watching for out of place things, expressions and body language one can see who commands attention; and then one learns to spot threats like guns, knives, etc.

Crooks, like the one in the OP who snatched the gun do it, too. He saw an unaware guy who was armed, found an easy opening to attack and disarm him, then took off. I still don’t know if his gun was open carried or was a ccw that got exposed somehow. Nevertheless, the guy with the gun got complacent or got distracted, he let his guard down, and sadly he paid dearly for it.

Stay safe.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

By any chance can you recommend any reliable videos that demonstrate retention techniques?

 

[herrwalther]

I don't mind seeing an open carried firearm in a retention holster. Whether it is a simple strap or a level whatever with levers and buttons. But open carry in a regular holster is just asking for a grab if you aren't trained in weapon retention tactics.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Thank you very much!

 

[drobs]

Open carry is legal in Missouri. I will occasionally uncover my pistol worn OWB and OC when stopping at sketchy gas stations, late at night, & paying at the pump. I also will uncover my pistol when stopped somewhere on a main road in the local National Forest.

I do so because I want instant access to my pistol.

 

[bdickens]

Why the hell are you stopping at sketchy gas stations late at night?

 

[Kleanbore]

Why the hell are you stopping at sketchy gas stations late at night?

That should always be a last resort, and is is usually avoidable.

 

[GEM]

Of course retention training is a good thing. The problem with LEO oriented training is that is seems to be oriented when the officer become entangled with the grabber for some reason. Then there is the gun grab. It's not a grab first for the gun in a surprise move as happens in some of the civilian videos. They also don't start with an attack on the person BEFORE the grab.

As I said above, if I were a criminal, I might have a knife. My first move would be a disabling, distracting, perhaps lethal usage of the knife. That diversion short circuits the martial arts type moves. Having one person distract you and the other stab or slash you repeatedly as they decided and planned for the knife - rather than a resisting bad gun for the officer - is a different story.

I told one guy I could always get his OC gun. He said: HOW! I said: I would shoot you without warning. A few 25 ACPs from a cheap Lorcin will get you a OC Staccato with a Holosun.

Would you OC in the crowded subway? No, we tend to see OC in places that are probably relatively safe from a planned grab. Probably not under threat at the King Ranch Burger in Rock Springs, TX. Open carry on the crowded F train on the way to work from Brooklyn to Manhattan, don't think so.

 

[drobs]

Why the hell are you stopping at sketchy gas stations late at night?

That should always be a last resort, and is is usually avoidable.

Any gas station can have sketchy looking people at it at anytime. There are no safe neighborhoods.

 

[Kleanbore]

Any gas station can have sketchy looking people at it at anytime. There are no safe neighborhoods.

The poster alluded to "gas staions in sketchy neighborhoods late at night" and open carry.

Stations do vary.

 

[bdickens]

Any gas station can have sketchy looking people at it at anytime. There are no safe neighborhoods.

That's not what you said.