How to read groups?

[hoardingthemanual]

I touched off my first 308 Win handloads last week and am evaluating the target. What exactly am I looking for? Thanks for the time.

Admittedly, groups for two batches became muddled, but idk what I’m looking for so no harm no foul.

If this was your target, what would be your takeaways? Note, bottom left flyer is a factory round.

View attachment 1137174

Cartridge notes:
Brass: Aguila once-fired
Bullet: 150 grain FMJ Hornady
Primer: Fiocchi standard line. green compound.
Powder: Varget
CBTO: 2.153". .081" off lands.

Batch 1:
36 grains-
2164 fps
2144 fps
2157 fps

Batch 2:
37 grains-
2224 fps
2224 fps
2221 fps

Batch 3:
38 grains-
2271 fps
2282 fps
2284 fps
2259 fps

 

[Walkalong]

37 is better than 36 and 38 is better than 37, but that's not a lot of data, how do you feel about your shots, feel good, cross hairs where you wanted them, follow through good?

 

[hoardingthemanual]

37 is better than 36 and 38 is better than 37, but that's not a lot of data, how do you feel about your shots, feel good, cross hairs where you wanted them, follow through good?

Thank you, sir. I was shooting well (for me). The other target I used but didn’t post has holes in the 9 and 10 circle. However, I’m also new to rifles and marksmanship. I don’t know how else to describe my shooting method.

Picking up on what you said about crosshairs where I wanted them, I was a lot more comfortable this time than previous range trips. In the past, I wanted more zoom to help me shoot better, but this past trip I was content with my 3-9x Vortex. I think it’s because I swapped out stocks for one with a higher comb.

Regarding follow through, I don’t know what to do there. I noticed that my pressure on the grip wasn’t as tight as before. My hand wasn’t killing me. I also pulled the rifle tighter into my shoulder.

I would like to go hunting one day and want to do my part for an ethical shot. My mantra for the day was to practice & shoot with conscious intent.

 

[Howland937]

From a non-precision shooter and non-expert reloader:

couple of things...
What rifle are you shooting? What distance are you shooting? Outside in wind or calm? How are you resting the rifle? (You may have already covered these in another post...I just hadn't seen if you did) Ideally we want to take as much of ourselves out of the equation as possible...grip, pressure against the stock, etc.
As far as reading groups goes, closer together indicates more consistency. More consistency improves the likelihood of the shot landing where expected. Not sure your testing is far enough along to indicate anything yet, though.

(It's also waaaay easier to track groups with either fresh targets or targets that have multiple bullseyes)

In addition, where did you reference your data? The 36-38 grain charges of Varget seem kinda low for 150 grain bullets. Most of the quick search data I saw started at 40gr minimum.

The 37gr load looks to have the lowest spread in terms of velocity, but didn't appear to shoot as well. Seems counterintuitive. I do think you'll need a bigger sample size.

 

[CMV]

I didn't see distance if you posted it. If that was 300 I'd be doing a happy dance. 150 FMJ I'm guessing that's 100 yds?

This might apply to other calibers - I have no idea - but factory Fed Gold Medal Match 168 gr it just seems like anything 308WIN just does really well. I benchmark my 308 loads against it. If someone gives me a 308 they're having problems with first thing I try is seeing how it does on that ammo.

But anyway, get a reference. What is that rifle doing on similar weight & bullet factory loads. That is something I did with every caliber - otherwise no idea if I'm doing good things or turning $ into noise.

If it were me & goal was to have a good hunting load, I wouldn't be working up AR10 blasting ammo 150gr FMJ. If you want 150 gr, try something like Hornady #3033. That will give you better accuracy, is still inexpensive, & what you develop for that general purpose bullet is going to be real close for a CX or SST hunting bullet or a cheaper FMJ. Unless you have a lot already invested in projectiles or know that rifle for some reason hates 168gr but likes 150.....I'd also give thought to switching to 168gr now while you're early into it. That opens up more bullet choices, more pet loads.

 

[EricBu]

I really enjoyed your comments about wanting to be an ethical hunter, welcome to the fold! And thank you for making that a priority! Just a few comments. 150 FMJ is fine range ammo, and aguilla brass is fine for range ammo........don't expect any miracles from either, but they are fine for you to work up your techniques and get practice doing the loading, and much better to learn on that than waste money on high end components. I would concentrate on just one load, it's basically blasting ammo, and use that to work on your consistency and loading techniques. I'd take that #37 load, and take a bunch of them to the range, and work purely on shooting technique. Use a 5 group target (5 diamonds, 1 at each corner, larger one in the middle), so you can change your POA for each 3 rnd sample and get better feedback on your shot groups. Just work on tightening up that group with the basics. Then your next step, move up to some better components...you don't have to break the bank, even Starline .308 is magnitudes better than Aguilla. Pick up some decent quality 168 grain BTHP, Hornady makes fine 168 BTHP and they aren't horribly expensive, I've never met a .308 that didn't love those. Start your load work up over again, and enjoy your feeling of accomplishment when you see how much better your groups start looking as you gain experience loading and shooting.

 

[thirty-eight]

(It's also waaaay easier to track groups with either fresh targets or targets that have multiple bullseyes)

Yes.

 

[AJC1]

So if hunting is your goal I would do a few things. The first thing I would do is work up loads with hunting bullets. That doesn't mean I'm recommending accubonds, he'll I can't even afford those. I shoot a lot of speer 165 Spitzers. I say this as I believe most states don't allow fmjs. The second thing to do is practice like your in the field. You may be at a range with benches, but shoot off your pack or shooting sticks like you plan to hunt. Field shooting for hunting. And sport shooting are nothing alike.

 

[joneb]

I have good results with Varget in a Howa bolt action w/a 22" 1:12 barrel with 150 Nosler BT. I started with 44.5gr and wound up at 45gr at around 2900 fps with 5/8-3/4" at 100yds using Nosler brass and Federal LRP my COAL with that load is 2.830".
I found my memory I think average velocity was 2875 fps COAL 2.820" I think I had a
25 fps ES. I think that data is buried somewhere in a box, I will keep looking. Sorry
Never trust anything you see on the internet

 

[Howa 9700]

Are those loads even to the minimum starting point?

i'm at 46 grains Varget with 150 grain Hornady Interlock, which gave me velocities in the 2,900 fps range and no signs of pressure. It will shoot 1 MOA or better.

 

[kopcicle]

You're on the right track.
Now comes attention to detail and a greater but more selective sample size.
I left you a PM to get you started and I'll get back here as I'm able.

 

[kopcicle]

Are those loads even to the minimum starting point?

i'm at 46 grains Varget with 150 grain Hornady Interlock, which gave me velocities in the 2,900 fps range and no signs of pressure. It will shoot 1 MOA or better.

I'd rather have a "new" shooter error on the side of caution. I will agree though. Starting off on the shy end is going to cost some $$ in the long run. Starting off at the top of charge weights can get exciting. Somewhere in between perhaps? The thing is when you first start out what is "in between"?

 

[Blue68f100]

I touched off my first 308 Win handloads last week and am evaluating the target. What exactly am I looking for? Thanks for the time.

Admittedly, groups for two batches became muddled, but idk what I’m looking for so no harm no foul.

If this was your target, what would be your takeaways? Note, bottom left flyer is a factory round.

View attachment 1137174

Cartridge notes:
Brass: Aguila once-fired
Bullet: 150 grain FMJ Hornady
Primer: Fiocchi standard line. green compound.
Powder: Varget
CBTO: 2.153". .081" off lands.

Batch 1:
36 grains-
2164 fps
2144 fps
2157 fps

Batch 2:
37 grains-
2224 fps
2224 fps
2221 fps

Batch 3:
38 grains-
2271 fps
2282 fps
2284 fps
2259 fps

I don't know which part of TX your in, Texas is a very large state.

If your near me I can help you out. I have my own private range to 300 yrds. No waiting or others to deal with. As I've got older I find I need more optics to counter my aging eyes.

Time behind the trigger will help you get comfortable. Use bags to fully support the gun and stabilize it. Make sure you support the forearm in the same area every time. This is particularly important if the barrel has not been fully floated.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thank you, sir. I was shooting well (for me). The other target I used but didn’t post has holes in the 9 and 10 circle. However, I’m also new to rifles and marksmanship. I don’t know how else to describe my shooting method.

Picking up on what you said about crosshairs where I wanted them, I was a lot more comfortable this time than previous range trips. In the past, I wanted more zoom to help me shoot better, but this past trip I was content with my 3-9x Vortex. I think it’s because I swapped out stocks for one with a higher comb.

Regarding follow through, I don’t know what to do there. I noticed that my pressure on the grip wasn’t as tight as before. My hand wasn’t killing me. I also pulled the rifle tighter into my shoulder.

I would like to go hunting one day and want to do my part for an ethical shot. My mantra for the day was to practice & shoot with conscious intent.

I’d say you’re doing a whole lot right.
What rifle? What distance?

I agree with your method since right now you’re just learning how to handle a rifle and handload for a specific purpose. Can’t emphasize enough though that you do need different targets for load work up. One thing I do that’s a little different and has helped folks I’ve taught is to tape smaller targets onto a larger paper backing. It’s easier to track loads and they store better than a big folded up target. The 50yd small bore targets are nice for this.
Anyway, keep going in the direction you are and concentrate on eliminating the horizontal stringing by improving your posture - learn to put the butt in the soft spot of your shoulder instead of on your arm or shoulder point consistently. The lack of vertical stringing indicates your rifle probably likes the lighter load with those bullets.

 

[rfwobbly]

I think it's also important to be honest with yourself. I know that I am no Marine Sniper !! I love to shoot and my goal is always accuracy, but I get way too excited. Therefore, I might fire 6 shots and be willing to throw out the worst 2 shots. What I'm saying is... be willing to call a "flyer" a flyer.

If I wanted to lie to myself, then I'd take up fishing !

 

[kopcicle]

I don't know which part of TX your in, Texas is a very large state.

If your near me I can help you out. I have my own private range to 300 yrds. No waiting or others to deal with. As I've got older I find I need more optics to counter my aging eyes.

Time behind the trigger will help you get comfortable. Use bags to fully support the gun and stabilize it. Make sure you support the forearm in the same area every time. This is particularly important if the barrel has not been fully floated.

You're my new best friend. I want to move to Texas

 

[lordpaxman]

It’s very nice to see holes on paper! I’m with the others that want to know where you got your load data from? It’s below min if you look at published data. It may be shooting, but I’d start at min and then see what the groups do.

 

[LocoGringo]

Several things I'd recommend. 1) Targets: I use small, white paper plates with a shoot-n-see target repair dot that everyone throws away as the center aiming point. If you miss the center target, it's easy to see because it's a dark hole on a white background. If you hit the target dot, it's a shoot-n-see repair dot, so you can see where you actually hit it. By using individual paper plates, I can actually write the recipe on it and know which target was which. I also shoot 5-shot groups because I believe it's easier to see a trend than 3-shot groups. 2) I haven't looked up the starting powder charge for what you're loading, but it seems really low. I'm using 44.5 grains of Varget powder for 175 SMK and 178 Hornady A-max and getting 2570 fps without pushing pressures from an 18.5" barreled .308 AR. Your muzzle velocities are well below mine using a 150 grain bullet in an unknown length barrel and action. Good for being cautious, but you don't want to get a bullet stuck in the barrel either. 3) Others have said it, but shooting technique is vital. The rifle needs to be fully supported consistently the same way every time so that there is little variation and possible input from you. You (the shooter) are the most inconsistent part of the system, so that needs to be minimized as much as possible. Don't practice "field positions" when trying to evaluate your load. That's trying to accomplish 2 things and once and neither task will turn out well. Get a pet load that provides consistent accuracy and predictability first, then practice field position shooting. 4) Generally, FMJ is not good for hunting, so it may help in refining your loading process and practice, but you will eventually have to find another load with a suitable hunting bullet and go through the entire process again. Some people enjoy that, others don't. I like to find a load that is suited to the task I'm trying to accomplish and load up on that ammo. I don't have time to try to find multiple pet loads for different tasks. If you plan on hunting with this rifle, work up a hunting load with a suitable bullet for hunting (not FMJ). You'll lose less time, burn less powder, lose less bullets and pop fewer primers while wearing your barrel less starting for the task you intend to use the rifle for. Except for the brass, all of those components are difficult to find right now...waste less of them working toward your goal.

Also, enjoy learning the process. The first tiny group you shoot using your handloads is thrilling...at least it was for me. You also get to define what your standard of tiny is.

 

[Howland937]

It’s very nice to see holes on paper! I’m with the others that want to know where you got your load data from? It’s below min if you look at published data. It may be shooting, but I’d start at min and then see what the groups do.

I dug around a bit and found this. So there is actually published loads that the OP is using. Dunno which version or any other details.

 

[jmorris]

It’s pretty hard for me to make a conclusion with just two or 3 shots as there is a lot you might miss with such a small sample.

10 seems to always tell me more. Like these two, 10 shot, groups (different ammunition same everything else, shot back to back on the same day).

Those 3 at the top, including two in the center may look OK but all 10 didn’t even hit the paper!



These 10, while needing a point of aim/point of impact correction shows much more consistency in impact location. That’s what you are looking for.

 

[LocoGringo]

It’s pretty hard for me to make a conclusion with just two or 3 shots as there is a lot you might miss with such a small sample.

10 seems to always tell me more. Like these two, 10 shot, groups (different ammunition same everything else, shot back to back on the same day).

Those 3 at the top, including two in the center may look OK but all 10 didn’t even hit the paper!

View attachment 1137272

These 10, while needing a point of aim/point of impact correction shows much more consistency in impact location. That’s what you are looking for.

View attachment 1137273

For that kind of a spread on the first target, what distance were you shooting at?

 

[jmorris]

For that kind of a spread on the first target, what distance were you shooting at?

It was a 9mm at 100 yards. Plated bullets were the top group, the second was with JHP’s.

That’s not the important part though. Two, three or more shots in close proximity might not tell you everything you want to know was what I was getting at. The larger the sample size, the more I can rely on the results.

100 shot groups would tell us even more but everyone has to draw a line somewhere. There is nothing magical about 10 either, just twice the sample size of 5 and half the time to shoot and cost of 20. Everyone has to pick what they feel comfortable with.

2 and 3 shot groups are generally the most photogenic though. Even if they don’t tell us as much.

I’d still shoot more just so I am more knowledgeable about performance and if I wanted to fool a bunch of people that probably don’t care anyway, I’d just crop the photo to portray plated bullets as more accurate than they really are.

 

[AJC1]

It was a 9mm at 100 yards. Plated bullets were the top group, the second was with JHP’s.

That’s not the important part though. Two, three or more shots in close proximity might not tell you everything you want to know was what I was getting at. The larger the sample size, the more I can rely on the results.

100 shot groups would tell us even more but everyone has to draw a line somewhere. There is nothing magical about 10 either, just twice the sample size of 5 and half the time to shoot and cost of 20. Everyone has to pick what they feel comfortable with.

2 and 3 shot groups are generally the most photogenic though. Even if they don’t tell us as much.

I’d still shoot more just so I am more knowledgeable about performance and if I wanted to fool a bunch of people that probably don’t care anyway, I’d just crop the photo to portray plated bullets as more accurate than they really are.

View attachment 1137284

The magic of ten is that it shows barrel heat movements that three shot strings probably won't. The carbon barrel craze has shown those barrels in most senerios are not stable in longer strings. Besides 10 is the number of shots that most events run in. I like 10 shot groups because they also show shooter induced errors. Not great for load development but applicable to realign shooter expectations.

 

[barnfrog]

I would throw in a recommendation to do some dry firing drills on a regular basis. Doesn't cost you anything in components and can improve your trigger technique significantly, thus making your groups more indicative of the load's suitability rather than the shooter's ability. It helped shrink my groups quite a bit.

You don't need some fancy shmancy electronic training aid, either. You can do it at home as long as there is a place where you can set up with your gun pointed in a safe direction. Set up your rifle and rest as you would at the range, and a target of suitable size on the wall. Start by simply dry firing with the focus being that your cross hairs don't move from your target when the firing pin strikes. Once you can do that consistently try balancing a coin on the end of the barrel and see if you can dry fire without making the coin fall off. Work up from a quarter to a nickel to a dime. (The lighter the coin, the tougher it is to not disturb it.)

 

[Varminterror]

Three loads, a full grain apart, eh, I’m not drawing any conclusions at all, beyond the trivial solution that these low end loads fired successfully.