Cold weather powder/primer temp sensitivity testing results

[someguy2800]

I started a thread on Saturday with some chronograph testing comparing a few of my loads worked up in warm weather and shot in the cold. Well today I did some more extensive testing and I decided to roll the two threads into one.

First the results from Saturday. The thermometer read -1 F when I did this testing. I set my 357 magnum and my 300 blackout AR and ammo outside for an hour while I did other things and then shot them over the chrono.

Unfortunately it was early morning and I did not have the angle right on the chrono to get some sun and none of the 300 blackout rounds picked up.

Next the 4.2" 357 mag with a 125 grain Xtp, 21.5 gr of H110 (actually 296), federal sp magnum match primer. In 60 degree weather this averages right at 1500 fps.
1507
1475
1488

158 prvi HP with 15.4 gr 2400, S&B sp primer. This averages 1260 fps at 60 degrees.
1221
1241
1189

38 special target load, 125 berrys fp, 4 gr 700x, S&B primer. This averages 820 fps.

750
825
605 (felt noticeably softer)

Now for the next round of tests I loaded up a variety of experiment loads and also selected 3 of my hunting rifles to test with there standard loads. I picked this morning as the testing day because the weather channel said it would be the coldest morning this week and no wind. When I went to bed last night it was 27 below zero F but unfortunatly it warmed up overnight and was only -18 when I headed out to start testing. By the end of my testing it was about -10. I was hoping it would be colder than that but we get what we get. I left the guns and the ammo outside overnight so they were all fully temp stabilized by the time I shot. For the revolver, Marlin, and my AR I shot each group in about a minute or two and then switched to testing another gun with the action open to allow them to cool fully before the next group. With my Tikka and 444 I was walking to the target between each shot with the action left open so shots were at about 5 minute intervals.





This is not the order the groups were shot in, this is just how I'm organizing the data.

Ruger SP101 4.2" 357/38

357 magnum 125 gr Zero FP, 21.5 gr Win 296, S&B small pistol primer. I have not shot this load in warmer temps.
1397
error
1380
1329
1392
there was unburned powder left in all the cases which is unusual for 296

Same load with Federal small pistol magnum match primer. This load shoots right around 1500 at 60 degrees. No change in point of impact was noticed and they were very accurate.
1450
1435
1417
1395
1435

357 magnum 158 gr Prvi hp, 15.4 gr 2400, S&B small pistol primer. This load averages 1260 at normal temps. Very accurate
1184
1187
1187
1174
1240

Same load with Federal small pistol magnum match primer. This load averages 1320 at normal temps. This is a hot load and results in stiffer extraction than I like.
1284
1321
1312
1346
1331

38 Special 125 gr Berry's fp, 4.0 gr 700x, S&B small pistol primer. This load averages 820 fps at normal temps.
695
775
765
769
783
Same load with Federal small pistol magnum match primer. Never shot this at normal temps. These were notably louder and harder kicking.
810
785
801
764
787

All loads shot were just as accurate as normal. About 2" groups for all loads at 15 yards shot from a rest. I was not concentrating on maximum accuracy but did not notice any difference in accuracy. There was some POI shift due to the velocity changes. The 158 loads with 2400 were the most accurate today.

45-70 guide gun

Next up to test was my Marlin 1895 45-70 guide gun. My normal load with this gun is a 350 gr Oregon Trail hard cast bullet over 19 gr of Trailboss with an old lot of CCI LR magnum primer. In normal temps this load averages 1250 FPS.
1242
1262
1260

Same load with a Winchester large rifle standard primer, averages 1200 fps at normal temps.
1235
1244
1258

As you can see I only shot 3 of each in this gun. I learned something here, I am just about immune to cold and even for me it was very painful to hold the steel lever on the gun with my bare hand when it is 110 degrees below my body temperature. It was very unpleasant. Both loads grouped 1-1/2 at 50 yards with peep sights and no noticeable change in POI.

300 Blackout

Here is where things get really interesting. I worked up these loads in my 16" blackout AR in november so they were loaded in a 60 degree shed and walked outside and shot when it was about 20-30 degrees. I have also shot both of the non magnum primer loads at an indoor range at 70 degrees with very mild pressure.

125 gr hornady pulled bullets, loaded to cannelure, 20 gr Hodgdon Lil Gun, S&B small rifle primer. This load averages 2464 in normal temps. I shot up to 21 grains with no pressure signs which is as much as I could stuff in the case but velocity did not increase.
NA (lost it in the snow)
2450 (brass not recovered)
2506 (flattened primer)
2529 (flattened primer small ejector mark)
2556 (blown primer)

Same load with CCI 41 mil spec magnum primer. I can't find my notes on it but I believe this averaged 2500 in normal temps. I should not have shot these given the results from the standard primer batch but I was curious

2568 (blown primer severe pressure signs, I dropped this piece of brass out of the action and later found it in my coat pocket)
2543 (blown primer severe pressure signs)



At this point I did not shoot any more of the Lil Gun loads. It appears this powder becomes very volatile at low temperatures. These loads did not show any pressure signs whatsoever at normal temps. I would advise using extreme caution when using Lil Gun at low temps.

125 gr hornady pulled bullets, loaded to cannelure, 19 gr Win 296, S&B small rifle primer. This load averages 2300 in normal temps
error
error
2292
2304
2267

Same load with CCI 41 mil spec magnum primer. This load at normal temps averages 2350 or so
2332
2328
2313
2384
2280

Takeaways on this rifle. 296 showed very little change from warm to cold. I will do some more accuracy testing with magnum primers for this setup since they get a bit more velocity with no more apparent pressure. 19 gr is about as much as I can get in the case. The bolt failed to go into battery on the first round of each group and I had to drop it a second time to get over the extractor. Worked fine after that. I will need to look at different lube and the extractor for winter usage. The 296 loads shot 1 moa. Beware of Lil Gun, its reputation as a crazy ex girlfriend powder are warranted.

444 Marlin

Next up my 444 Marlin Handi Rifle. This is a 22" barrel that I reamed the throat on for longer bullets. I shoot a Montana Bullet works 320 gr gas checked hard cast long flat nose sized to .432". I tested this load extensively this summer and fall.

320 gr cast bullet, 45 gr Reloader 7, S&B Large Rifle primer, loaded in crimp groove. This load shoots 2200 FPS at 70 degrees and 2100 at about 25 degrees.
1930 (shot 1" higher than normal at 100 yards)
1854 (shot about 2-1/2" higher than normal at 100)
1804 (Shot at least 6" lower than normal at 200 yards)
1842 (Held 6" higher than normal POA at 200 yards and hit my gong)

This rifle will get to stay home when the temp goes below 20 degrees. This much temp sensitivity could be enough to completely miss your game at 200 or more yards. I will be working with this to see if a magnum primer helps.

25-06 Tikka

Tikka T3 lite 22". These are my deer load and coyote load.

120 gr Federal Fusion pulled bullets, 53 gr RL19, Winchester large rifle primer. This load at normal temps shoots 3006 fps average.
2969
2951
2928
2965
2912

I was re sighting the scope with the first 4 shots shots since I had removed and reinstalled it since the last time I shot it. At 100 yards the 4th shot was an inch high at 100. 5th shot was at my 200 yard plates and hit 2" low.

87 gr Speer TNT hp, 57 gr H4831sc, Winchester Large rifle primer. This load at normal temps shoots about 3300 fps.
2921
2951
3033

These hit POA at 100 and 3" low at 200. These would normally be zero'd at 200. I am very surprised that H4831 turns out to be more temp sensitive than RL19. I was initially reluctant to use RL19 in my hunting load as I have heard it is very temp sensitive. Well turns out its more stable than H4831! I have checked the zero on the 87 gr loads in cold temps and they usually do go lower by mabey 3/4" at 100 but I never chronographed them in the cold. Very suprizing.

All of these results are very interesting to me and not at all what I expected.

 

[Walkalong]

300 Blackout

Here is where things get really interesting.

Interesting indeed.

 

[Axis II]

So I would like to know why the cold made them go higher velocity?

 

[someguy2800]

Beats me. I was expecting H110 to be terrible in this cold and lil gun to work fine based on the results I have read. Here is an interesting read for one using magnum pistol powders in the cold.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/111162-H110-How-cold-is-too-cold

I have found over the years makings certain types of guns work below zero can be interesting. A semi auto 22 or 9mm pistol that works flawlessly in the summer can turn into a club at -20 if the lube and ammo isn't right. That's where a revolver suddenly becomes your best friend. I was shooting my buckmark the other day and although every round fired, it took 2 seconds after each shot for the slide to close. It was pretty funny to watch. Guess it's time to clean the wax and gunk out lol.

 

[egd]

Or maybe just stay inside with the sane people.

Notice, I'm from the south...

 

[someguy2800]

Nah, this is the best time of the year. The rest of the year is just passing time.

 

[Blue68f100]

The pressure increase could be every thing shrinking due to thermal expansion. In this case since were talking about extreme cold, things get smaller (tighter). I would be concern on some steels when the temp get below -20F. They can start to get brittle and fail.

I use to test well head equipment for the North Slope. The avg temp there is -30F with the record low is around -77F. This does not account for the wind chill, which is well below -100F. But at those temp how could you tell. I've worked in this environment as low as -75F for short periods. 5 Min is all it took for your hand an feet to get cold. -50 is a walk in the park though. I still have my arctic gear (suit) made for -50F. Needless to say has to be very cold before you put it on or you start sweeting. Valves that opened easily at RT you could not open with a 10' cheater and a sledge. Synthetic lubricants are you best friend when your talking about extremes temps. Carbon steel gets brittle at extreme colds, < -20F. Al on the other hand get stronger so AR's are no problem, with a SS barrel.

Interesting data. Just goes to show what you don't know unless unless you test it. Good to see that the W296/H110 preforms good at the extreme. LilGun is one powder I have not used due to all the reports of it burning up the throats in revolvers.

 

[Demi-human]

Mmm. Data. Yummy!
Thank you for the testing. And thank you for the freezing too. It is much nicer in the quiet of winter, isn't it?

 

[Kaldor]

Outstanding info, especially on the LilGun and W296 for 300 BO.
I used to load my hunting loads for 300 BO on LilGun, but switched everything over to W296 last year. Im glad I did from seeing this data, because my loads are done in the summer when its 80, and might be shot down at 0.

 

[243winxb]

300 Blackout

125 gr hornady 125gr hp pulled bullets,

If using 2 different bullets (?) in the 300 blk - Different Components = Different pressure.

It doesn't take much to make a difference. The 5 gr difference in bullet weight is not what makes the difference, its the bearing surface, construction of the bullet. Lead or solid core, thickness of jacket.

And 1.5 gr difference in powder.

If using only the 1 bullet and not 2, disregard above.

 

[someguy2800]

300 Blackout

If using 2 different bullets (?) in the 300 blk - Different Components = Different pressure.

It doesn't take much to make a difference. The 5 gr difference in bullet weight is not what makes the difference, its the bearing surface, construction of the bullet. Lead or solid core, thickness of jacket.

And 1.5 gr difference in powder. View attachment 772686

If using only the 1 bullet and not 2, disregard above.

That was a typo, I accidentally typed it twice. All loads were shot using the same batch of bullets that the loads were worked up with. These bullets are specific to the 300 blackout and have a very long tip and short section in the case so they give more case capacity than most other bullets would.

 

[243winxb]

This 300 AAC Blk data at 21.0 grs make no sense to me. More case capacity? Ball powders always need a magnum primer. IMO. More so in the cold. Start low and work up as always.

 

[someguy2800]

This 300 AAC Blk data at 21.0 grs make no sense to me. View attachment 772687 More case capacity?

Have you ever loaded with lil gun? Its kind of a quirky powder. In a very specific few cartridges that have the right case capacity and expansion ratio's it is pretty much impossible to overload with lil gun and yet is gives better velocity than anything else while also having very mild pressure. For example my father uses it religiously in 22 hornet. He tells me that he fills the case to overflowing, scrapes the powder off flush with the top, and crams a bullet on top of it. That gives him 200 fps more velocity than any other powder tested and no pressure signs. Lil gun is also the powder that made the 17 hmr possible. When I worked this 300 blackout load 19 grains of 296 gave 2300 FPS and a nearly flat primer. It was not cratering or making ejector marks in the brass yet, and still had a small radius at the edge of the primer. With 20 grains of lil gun however I got 2464 FPS and the primers looked like they were shot out of a 38 special. Way way way less pressure for 150 fps more velocity. Unfortunately accuracy wasn't as good as 296.

Here are my results from working up this load in November. These were loaded one batch at a time in a 60 degree room and then walked outside and shot when it was about 20-30 degrees.

125gr Hornady HP, S&B primer
18gr = 2300 fps (Flattened primer)
18.5gr = 2347 fps (no pressure signs)
19gr = 2375 fps
19.5gr = 2404 fps
20gr = 2464
20.5gr = 2487
21 gr = 2384

For reference 20 grains is a compressed load. 21 grains is realistically all I can get in the case and not spill it.

 

[fxvr5]

Here's a suggestion - if you're posting data, put it in a Table so it's easier to read. Don't make the reader do all the work.

I see this stuff strung out in a long post and I don't bother trying to make heads or tails of it. I'm probably not the only one.

 

[243winxb]

Have you ever loaded with lil gun? Its kind of a quirky powder.

Have not use lil gun Have use 296, H450 (discontinued), H380. Ball powder are quirky, so i try to avoid them.

I think the high pressure could have been avoided in the 300 if load was worked up with a mag primer?? Maybe not? The 21.0 gr velocity drop, 103 fps , is said to be a sign of high pressure?

Overall , a good test of hot vs cold weather, powders and cartridges.

 

[Dudedog]

27 below zero F but unfortunatly it warmed up overnight and was only -18

Thanks for posting the info, very interesting.
Nice to know H110/296 behaves well in the cold.

 

[someguy2800]

Here's a suggestion - if you're posting data, put it in a Table so it's easier to read. Don't make the reader do all the work.

I see this stuff strung out in a long post and I don't bother trying to make heads or tails of it. I'm probably not the only one.

Was there a charge for admission to read this thread? There was alot of work involved in loading all this, documenting it, and writing all this up. I'm sorry that you can't be bothered to read.

Thanks for posting the info, very interesting.
Nice to know H110/296 behaves well in the cold.

Thank you

 

[someguy2800]

Have not use lil gun Have use 296, H450 (discontinued), H380. Ball powder are quirky, so i try to avoid them.

I think the high pressure could have been avoided in the 300 if load was worked up with a mag primer?? Maybe not? The 21.0 gr velocity drop, 103 fps , is said to be a sign of high pressure?

Overall , a good test of hot vs cold weather, powders and cartridges.

I did also shoot the 20 gr load with a mag primer with no pressure signs in warmer weather. I did not write it down but I believe it was around 2500 fps with a mag primer. The 21 grain load showed no pressure signs. I stopped there because the velocity was dropping off and it was a pain trying to get that much powder in the case without spilling it. I have had a couple experiences where powders either show no increase in velocity with increasing compressed charges, or even a small drop. The examples that come to mind were with 4831, trail boss, and 1680. However I have never seen a drop off to the degree of that lil gun load.

And thank you, I hope you enjoyed it.

 

[ATLDave]

FWIW, since I read this post on my phone, I really liked the non-tabular formatting. That stuff never works on my phone, so just scrolling through narrative text interspersed with the data relevant to the prose was very digestible. OP, thanks for posting!

 

[redbullitt]

Very cool to see. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

I think a couple runs of this test with the same loads could be very telling to verify the results and maybe play in a bit colder temperature to see if the issues continue or get worse etc!

 

[someguy2800]

Very cool to see. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

I think a couple runs of this test with the same loads could be very telling to verify the results and maybe play in a bit colder temperature to see if the issues continue or get worse etc!

I think I've pretty much answered all my own questions. Is there something you would like to see tested or retested or something I'm overlooking? I am going ice fishing this weekend but it looks like we will have some -10 mornings next week.

 

[Dudedog]

Is there something you would like to see tested

Well since you asked,
I have heard bare butts stick to metal toilet seats when it's that cold.
I need a couple butts tested and the results in a table.

Never gets that cold where I'm at but a bad summer day might be 115.

Thanks again for taking the time and the trouble to post your results.

 

[Demi-human]

Well, they stick if one is a bit overdressed. Which also makes it tough to get free.
Let me just leave it at that.

 

[someguy2800]

They don't stick, but it does feel like your being burned with a hot iron. Funny you should mention it, I was just wearing blue jeans when I did this and had to alternate between wearing my right glove and sitting on it.

If your hands are wet and you grab a metal object at this temp it will stick. The scene from the dumb and dumber movie where he licks the pole and it sticks? That really does work. Throwing the cup of coffee in the air and it not touching the ground does work.

 

[z7]

It’s cold here in Florida today, I might need a long sleeve shirt at the range tomorrow, it will be in the 60’s

Neat info especially on the lilgun 300blackout

I don’t have one (yet)