How to shoot a revolver DA in a defensive confrontation.

[tipoc]

A few of the latest techniques from the late 1950s an early 60s.

This film was originally done by the FBI and used by law enforcement around the U.S. Here we see the draw, trigger position, point shooting, the FBI crouch and more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3PRjkBb58

This was standard practice for a good many years till Jack Weaver, Jeff Cooper and others led the way on a "revolution" of sorts.

tipoc

 

[W.E.G.]

Let me guess.

Whoever shoots first usually wins?

 

[Jenrick]

Honestly if you have enough time and ammo to get good at body index point shooting what is shown in the video works. I'm still a much bigger proponent of sighted fire myself however.

-Jenrick

 

[SFsc616171]

I was taught this method, as a Security Augmentee in Thailand. I do know how to employ 'sighted' firing, (front sight, front sight, FRONT SIGHT!), as well.

We were issued SW M15's. I own one now.

I offer that folks acquire the 'pdf', and look at the YouTube videos that are employing the methods talked about in the book "Shoot To Live".

 

[Iggy]

I learned all of that stuff from the FBI during recruit training. Then I learned to look for the front sight. I was in a couple of serious social events and the "front sight" got me home from one and an afternoon shooting with Bill Jordan got me home in the other one.

 

[tipoc]

Yep Jordan did different.

tipoc

 

[BSA1]

I shoot most accurately when focusing on the front sight.

However for distances inside 7 yards this is not very practical. Two techniques I have been taught over the years is hip shooting and point shoulder.

Hip shooting takes time and practice to really learn well.

With point shoulder I bring the gun up to just below eye level, holding the gun with both hands and look over the sights focusing on the target. I practiced this yesterday and easily put all of my rounds in a 2' vertical group center of mass from 7+ yards.

 

[Old Fuff]

Does you want to see a real shootout???

A security camera caught the action as the potential victim was set upon while pumping gas into his car. Three goons picked the wrong person to hold up.

This real-life incident shows a point blank, 1-shot/one handed/ response that happens very quickly. Watch it and learn.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f6e_1392219642

 

[Water-Man]

Best to practics both techniques. Which one to use will depend on the circumstances.

 

[Jim K]

That was all wrong. The cop didn't take the proper approved stance, failed to place his feet at the proper angle, didn't call the bad guy's lawyer and the ACLU, and actually fired his gun, clearly in violation of department regulations. Shameful.

Jim

 

[tipoc]

Well here's part two...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otujWA01poY

Tactics taught in 1960.

tipoc

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I gotta add this and then I'll shut up because it really seems to make professional trainers angry....

We did 10 years of training in the dojo with police officers and others with actual combat experience not to mention an awful lot of professional training...we trained knife on gun techniques from about 12' away. I was the edged weapons instructor and all of this was done behind closed doors with plastic and unloaded weapons. The results were video taped and analyzed/scrutinized and defense tactic were changed and we used lasers and paint guns and all kinds of stuff over the ten years we trained. It was at the request of the local Sherriff and it was all done voluntarily at his request as he and I trained the same arts together and he wanted to impart to his deputies what I could do and what he and I both learned about the subject.

The exercise was pretty simple. An officer stands with a holstered gun 12' away from a guy (me) and both are on alert because we know that a buzzer is gonna sound and the guy (me) is gonna pull a knife out of his pocket and charge the officer. The officer has to defend himself against a deadly attack from this guy (me) with a gun against a knife from 12' away. Few officers in 10 years, even with adapted scenarios and adapted training and practice ever stopped the guy with the knife. None ever did it without being cut....badly cut if the knife had been real. Some (many) learned techniques that would help them survive from the things we learned and developed techniques from.

2 things are given. Number one: The officer has no chance if he does not move instantly, quickly and continuously. He can be fast as lightning off the buzzer but if he does not move before doing anything else he has no prayer of avoiding the inevitable attack that will cut him to death with one stroke. Moving is not an option - it is the only prayer. The man that hunkers down, takes a stance to form a platform to fire from is a dead man.

Number two: The officers that moved and learned to draw while moving lost their chance if they attempted sighted fire. The only ones who ever stopped the guy with the knife (me) charging from 12' were the one who moved at the buzzer, drew while moving, and shot from the point...any attempt to get the gun up and use the sights got them killed.

That's all I'm gonna say other than this is the basis for the way I train defensive pistol craft now. Move RIGHT NOW laterally and to cover, draw while moving, shoot from the point while moving. Shoot many times and never stop until the opponent is beyond moving/fighting. In gun on gun from 12' (we did that as well) the same general rules applied - move and draw while moving and shoot from the point or die in yer tracks. If we'd only done it ten thousand times there would be hope or doubt. Sighted fire in my experience and standing and shooting it out? Never in a million years. I only have a chance if I move and provide the attacker with only a deflection shot while I have specifically trained myself to shoot while moving and hit what I look at 'cause there's a good chance it'll be moving as well.

VooDoo

 

[Old Fuff]

That was all wrong. The cop didn't take the proper approved stance, failed to place his feet at the proper angle, didn't call the bad guy's lawyer and the ACLU, and actually fired his gun, clearly in violation of department regulations. Shameful.

Not only that, but then he runs away and hides behind the gas pump. That's not the way they do it on TV....

I notice that the video footage I cited in post #8 has apparently been edited for political correctness. When I first watched it, it showed the shooter draw in a flash, take a one-arm shoulder/point stance without otherwise moving, and fire.

Under the circumstances shown in this incident, to survive he has to draw, fire and hit his opponent in a time frame where he beats the other party's reaction time. That's something Bill Jordan excelled at. At longer distances other techniques come into play. No single way is the "right one" in all situations. The key is to know what too do, and how to do it.

 

[sgt127]

Im a product of the IPSC days. Early 80's, Jeff Cooper etc. I am convinced that if you practice, all the time, drawing and finding the front sight, it will be there no matter how fast you draw and how fast you get on the trigger. We called it "muscle memory" and, I think its a valid concept.

I would like to find the front sight before I pull the trigger, but, if the distance is close, and, I need to hurry, its just as fast for me to get the gun between my eye and the target as it is to debate the range and decide I am close enough to "hip shoot" and use another set of skills and muscles. Unless it is SO close that I would chance a gun grab. In that case, theres no need to extend the arm.

Now, the one thing IPSC didn't teach was moving and shooting. Not much anyway. You ran to a spot, stopped, and shot from there. I think regular practice drawing and shooting while side stepping is VERY important. Good point from VooDoo.

 

[fastbolt]

Lots of folks have lots of opinions about the "best" way to use a firearm as a dedicated defensive weapon during a deadly force incident. Some have experience, some don't.

I look at it this way ...

A well-rounded boxer or martial artist may have a favored punch, strike, blow, kick, technique, etc ... but being well-rounded means just that.

If you only train to respond to a specific circumstance, in a specific manner, you better hope that's what finds you.

This subject can get even murkier and more confusing when people start trying to use the word "instinctive", as if instinct is always the best response to any situation, set of conditions or circumstances. There's no rule that prevents instinctive behavior from resulting in the actor's extinction.

Voodoo, when it comes to facing a blade, getting and maintaining distance while addressing the threat is still your friend.

 

[MrBorland]

I am convinced that if you practice, all the time, drawing and finding the front sight, it will be there no matter how fast you draw and how fast you get on the trigger.

Just to clarify: "Finding" the front sight is based on conscious effort and therefore relatively slow. A good index allows one's subconscious to confirm a good sight picture and "let" the shot happen. IOW, if you have a good index, there's no need to "find" anything - just get out of your own way and let your subconsciousness run the gun.

 

[sgt127]

Mr Borland. Thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say.

 

[Jenrick]

Vodoun da Vinci: Dennis Tueller came to same conclusion possibly around the same time frame. The modern update with modern security holsters is 35'+ to be able to get the gun out. I'll be honest if you had the knife man 12' away from me, I'm not even going to mess with the gun. Crash in on the buzzer and starting working empty hand techniques until I have time/space to perform a contact shot or use the pistol as an impact weapon.

-Jenrick