Hpowder granulation size.

[ZVP]

Reading several posts, the question of 4vs 3F to get optimum performance in revolvers causes me to wonder if the smaller granulation would result in overcharges ? Smaller granulation would result in MORE mass in the chambers.
Granted, modern reproduction guns are better steel and likely could handle it.
Nevertheless, no real benefit comes from overcharging either in much velocity and surely not accuracy.
I enjoy loading my Pyrodex from a flask to a 23 gr measure, both got max safety from explosions and for max consincy just as in handloading
I shoot my revolvers to relax and enjoy handling all the toys
Pyrodex has enough rumors about it and you can't be too cautious I only can get Pyrodex and I use "p"
Let' s discuss it please?
ZVP

 

[rodwha]

I see no reason to use 4F when there are several energetic options that come in 3F. I’d never recommend to anyone else to forgo the manufacturer’s warnings/recommendations, though many feel their conclusions are bogus, myself being another.

If there were no energetic options I’d most certainly be testing 4F. But it seems from quite a few that they get better accuracy from 3F.

The Hazard’s Pistol Powder paper cartridges used 4F that was equivalent to Swiss. The .44 cal load used 36 grns pushing a 211 grn conical. The government wouldn’t have supplied those if they were found to grenade the cylinders of their troops. The .36 cal version used 21 grns pushing a 141 grn conical.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The problem(s) with 4Fg are more due to the granulation size, than the mass. For example IF you had a single piece of black powder, sized to just fit inside the chamber of your revolver, and you loaded a ball atop it...then fired, it would have actually more mass than the same load of 4Fg, as it would be homogenous with no gaps between any granules. When fired it would produce LESS pressure, burning a split second slower, because it would burn from one end to the other. 4Fg has a pretty quick powder spike because of the very small granules that result in soooo much surface area, hence the increased risk of using it in a main charge for some black powder arms.

LD

 

[jaguarxk120]

4F is generally used as priming powder in flintlock
rifles/shotguns. Much too fine to be used as a main charge.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I doubt that using 4f would be dangerous but I don't see any advantage either.
Unless your state has some kind of restriction you can order Black Powder here;
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5449
They offered free shipping recently but that may be over.

 

[Tommygunn]

The problem(s) with 4Fg are more due to the granulation size, than the mass. For example IF you had a single piece of black powder, sized to just fit inside the chamber of your revolver, and you loaded a ball atop it...then fired, it would have actually more mass than the same load of 4Fg, as it would be homogenous with no gaps between any granules. When fired it would produce LESS pressure, burning a split second slower, because it would burn from one end to the other. 4Fg has a pretty quick powder spike because of the very small granules that result in soooo much surface area, hence the increased risk of using it in a main charge for some black powder arms.

LD

+1


You see an analogous process in rust. A wrought iron fence will rust ("oxidize," or burn) slowly. Anyone who's dropped iron filings over a bunsen burner in school chemistry class has seen the nice shower of sparks that results; both are the exact same process, but those tiny iron filing particles do it more colorfully as they burn much faster.

 

[robhof]

I've used 4f in one of my ROA's with no problem, the owners manual even says; "any granulation, but best results are with 3f". It shot fine, I used it because I ran out of 3f and still wanted to shoot a few more rounds, I remembered that I had filled my priming flask and was able to get 6, 35gr cylinder loads from the small flask. It had more recoil than the 3f, but not significantly more, I was shooting a 15yd target and shots were still within the 10 ring of my target.

 

[rodwha]

4F is generally used as priming powder in flintlock
rifles/shotguns. Much too fine to be used as a main charge.

That’s a misconception. The Hazard’s paper cartridges I pointed out used 4F. And a curator for a museum took apart many late 1800’s metallic cartridges and found 4F and even finer in many of them, even the large calibers. Also it’s not uncommon even these days to see 4F used in small calibers (rifle or handgun), as well as pocket guns. History just seems to say otherwise.

 

[drobs]

Here's Pietta's loading recommondations:


Pretty certain that was written by lawyers.

 

[rodwha]

Uberti used to state the Walker was stronger than the originals as it was made with modern steel and went on to state the max charge was 30 grns of 3F, which is only about 3/4 of a full charge in an Army revolver. I asked them about it in an email but they didn’t want to respond.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't think it will necessarily harm a repro revolver, though when talking brass-framed, 4Fg will probably shorten the life of the piece for shooters using large loads, as lower pressure on the brass = higher round count before encountering problems. No, I think the admonition comes from the upsurge in muzzleloader use in the U.S. that began in the 1950's. I have read some of the pre-1950 books on muzzle loading, and at least one of these books suggested using a load consisting of a maximum of 10 grains of smokeless "shotgun" powder, with an additional load of black powder, when shooting long range targets. (The recommended "smokeless" powder has long since been discontinued from manufacture, so don't try that these days!) With that then, the steel found in say 1850's vintage rifles, and in muzzleloading rifles made after cartridge guns became common, was pretty good if a respected author on muzzleloading was suggesting "duplex powder loads".

So I think the upsurge in muzzleloading in the 1950's caused a lot of questionable, heirloom rifles to be tried out. Folks took grand pappy's rifle down, got some powder and caps, and let fly. Well we can imagine what happens when you have a ML of questionable condition, and you load a 60 grain charge of 4Fg into that. I think this "rule" against 4Fg was simply applied across the board. Instead of, "You can use 4Fg in this rifle, but probably should avoid it in this other rifle, and definitely not in this particular shotgun, while you could in that revolver, but not this other pistol over here, etc etc etc", I think it was simply adopted across the board. Keeping it simple helped ill informed novices from injury and destruction of a piece of history, while at the same time allowing them to still try out that vintage piece hanging over the mantle a few times.

I will point out that 4Fg does (well at least in all 10 of my flinters) soak up moisture quickly in foggy or damp conditions, and decades ago I stopped using it entirely.

LD