HR1022 - a new McCarthyism
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bogie
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Disjointed image, no real meaning that doesn't require a half hour of explanation.
Exactly right. And if Congress was full of guys like Joe McCarthy, we wouldn't have to be worrying about ANY gun laws coming out of Washington, and there wouldn't be any Gun Control Act, or NFA act, or any of that nonsense.
The fact that "McCarthyism" is associated with something bad is an indicator of just how effective the forces that want to take this country off the scale to the left have been over the years in spreading disinformation about him.
QuestionEverything
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Full of Soviet spies? McCarthy repeatedly claimed that "I have a list of card-carrying communists" but he failed to produce a single name. If he was right, how come none of the "Un-American Activities Committees" were able to uncover any spies, and how come Eisenhower himself hated McCarthy's activities?
It takes some stunning logical leaps to believe that there were hundreds of communist agents in the State Department during a time when there was so much paranoia over communism. A much more likely explanation is that an obscure drunkard of a Senator found the perfect way to increase his influence and exploited it for all it was worth.
It takes some stunning logical leaps to believe that there were hundreds of communist agents in the State Department during a time when there was so much paranoia over communism. A much more likely explanation is that an obscure drunkard of a Senator found the perfect way to increase his influence and exploited it for all it was worth.
TexasRifleman
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It takes the same stunning logical leap to believe there were none.
SoCalShooter
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The dark lord only takes FRIENDS hunting with him. She is a dem and therefore to the dark lord a rebel and an enemy.
sctman800
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I am no expert on Joe McCarthy, but it is my understanding that he went looking for a cause to champion and that was it. Jim.
Negative. Back in the '50s, the Secretary of State sent a letter to Congress listing almost 300 people who worked for the Department of State and were considered security risks because of Communist connections or other problems. He went on to say that only about 80 or so had been fired. That's where the 200-something number that McCarthy used came from. From the Secretary of State himself. McCarthy never publicly named any of them, for perfectly legitimate reasons, one being that his hearings weren't a court and these people weren't on trial. He believed in "innocent until proven guilty".
The left has for decades used the fact that McCarthy didn't publicly name names to discredit him, when in fact he was being a standup guy about it and not ruining reputations needlessly. But the fact is that the Department of State and other federal agencies were hotbeds of Communists, and the Secretary of State himself said so in writing.
But you won't hear that on CNN or read it in your Outcome-Based Education history books, because they don't want you to know the truth.
QuestionEverything
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Got sources? Citations?
bogie
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What does Joe McCarthy have to do with anything related to our current situation regarding firearms?
HR1022-a new McCarthyism
It is time to tell these anti-gunners that THEIR JOBS ARE ON THE LINE!!!!!! IF THEY DO NOT PULL OUT OF THEIR SUPPORT OF 1022,Then their JOBS WILL BE ON THE LINE EITHER RECALL OR VOTING THEIR A.. OUT OF JOB!!!!!!!! I do not live in New York State, But,if I did,I would be making phone calls and also saying If SOMETHING HAPPENS TO ME BY A CRIMINAL WITH A FIREARM AND 1022 passes,I WILL HOLD YOU AS AN ACCESORIE ALONG WITH THE CRIMINAL!!!!!!!! NOW THEN THEY WIIL THINK AND SAY YOU CANT DO THAT!!!!!!!,I HAVE TWO WORDS FOR THE ANTI-GUNNERS IN CONGRESS and SENATE,WATCH US,THE VOTERS!!!!!!!!!! Rich Ziemies,Omaha,Ne.
It is time to tell these anti-gunners that THEIR JOBS ARE ON THE LINE!!!!!! IF THEY DO NOT PULL OUT OF THEIR SUPPORT OF 1022,Then their JOBS WILL BE ON THE LINE EITHER RECALL OR VOTING THEIR A.. OUT OF JOB!!!!!!!! I do not live in New York State, But,if I did,I would be making phone calls and also saying If SOMETHING HAPPENS TO ME BY A CRIMINAL WITH A FIREARM AND 1022 passes,I WILL HOLD YOU AS AN ACCESORIE ALONG WITH THE CRIMINAL!!!!!!!! NOW THEN THEY WIIL THINK AND SAY YOU CANT DO THAT!!!!!!!,I HAVE TWO WORDS FOR THE ANTI-GUNNERS IN CONGRESS and SENATE,WATCH US,THE VOTERS!!!!!!!!!! Rich Ziemies,Omaha,Ne.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I do. But you know what? I'm getting tired of having to spoon-feed every guy who just sits behind his computer and posts "Link?" "Got sources?" "Citations?". If you care, do your own research. The truth is out there just waiting for you.
As usual there are those of us who have bothered to take the time to learn about what is really going on, and there are those who, well, can't or haven't bothered. Believe whatever you want. But if you really do care about learning what's going on around you, the don't rely on others to provide you with "sources" and "citations", go and find out for yourself.
Or, don't bother, and you can spend the rest of your life parrotting what you hear on TV and down at the bar. Or from the Clintons.
Frankly, I'm always baffled when, on in a forum such as this where you would expect a more conservative crowd, that there are people who think that rooting Communists out of the government is a bad thing. Even if there weren't any, why would trying to get to the bottom of the matter be bad? I can only assume that everyone that thinks McCarthy was a bad guy believes that Communists in the government is a good thing. Only explanation I can come up with.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I recommend you all take a read of William F Buckley's book "McCarthy and His Enemies" before you decide one way or the other. It was published in 1954 but still around.
Most of us learned about McCarthy from public schools or movies I am guessing, where they still teach of that time period as "The McCarthy Era". Read this and I think you will find that this, like so many other things, has a story with 2 sides.
And if you don't know who Bill Buckley is, well, more's the pity.
http://www.amazon.com/McCarthy-His-Enemies-Record-Meaning/dp/0895264722
Most of us learned about McCarthy from public schools or movies I am guessing, where they still teach of that time period as "The McCarthy Era". Read this and I think you will find that this, like so many other things, has a story with 2 sides.
And if you don't know who Bill Buckley is, well, more's the pity.
http://www.amazon.com/McCarthy-His-Enemies-Record-Meaning/dp/0895264722
Lets give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume there were positive results. There are unquestionably bad results from trying to get the bottom of things also. This can certainly make the matter of trying to find communists in government bad. We had american citizens being grilled in front of congress about their politican beliefs, something that ultimately landed many in prison. We wound up with a law that was used to harass tons of people before it was found unconstitutional. Quite literally hundreds of people were in jail because of mccarthyism. Secret accusations of being terrorists, I'm sorry communists cost thousands of people their jobs. Homosexuals were persued, I'm not sure what that had to do with communism.
I'm all for hearing the other side of the story but I have to say the person that says "mccarthy was a great guy, what harm did he do" is starting out with incredibly low credibility with regards to being informed about the results of mccarthyism. The good that came from it can be debated if you like but I think the bad is quite apparent and not argued by many.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
OK OK, back up the truck now. Let me guess, you went to public school?
Hundreds of people were in jail because of this?
Again, this is the public school and journalist revisionist history story you are repeating.
Let's see your proof of "hundreds jailed because of McCarthy".
Here's a little factoid for you.....
Just as a sidebar, here is another little factoid for you.
Need some more facts?
Here is a quote from the Buckley book mentioned above and I think it sums this all up nicely.
And THAT is how the story is taught in schools where they still teach it at all.
I'll just leave that one alone for now.....
*** Most of the quotes here come from "Joseph McCarthy Reexaming the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator"
By ARTHUR HERMAN
Its not public school or journalists that I'm as concerned about as much as it is people like ann coulter suggesting that maybe he was a good guy. I have yet to see scholarly evidence that mccarthy's work was anything near successful, not proof that it wasn't harmful.
Here's a law school textbook, there's lots of other citations out there for this type of thing, the number of people prosecuted isn't debated by scholars any more than if we landed on the moon or the holocaust happened.
http://books.google.com/books?id=i4...ts=VrSxDiT-yS&sig=UP_9fx5vxXQAWhnV1fjPLuibq7E The hollywood ten are of course the most famous and you should find lists of their names everywhere.
Whats the quote about stalin for? We don't have to live up to our own values as long as we're better than the communists? Guilty men going free so that no innocent man is punished and all that wonderful stuff is sort of the american way. Hitler and Mussolini was really bad guys but it doesn't mean we should be commended for our internment of japanese americans because it was only a little bad in comparison.
Is your assertation that hardly anyone was prosecuted under the smith act in this fashion and that Yates v. US was irrelevant past its own participants? Which arguement do we want to start with? That more dangerous people were identified than innocents and punished so the ends justifies the means, or that there were no innocents harmed?
Lets say exactly 108 people were convicted under the smith act which the USSC struck down as unconstitutional. Thousands more were harassed and lost their jobs or were unemployable because of secret accusers and accusations. This somehow supports mccarthy being a good guy?
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
My assertion is that you posted facts that were not even REMOTELY accurate, you were called on it, and can offer no sources for your statement.
That is my assertion.
That you dislike Ann Coulter has nothing to do with this.
That you post more facts about the Smith Act has nothing to do with this since McCarthy was not even involved in the creation of the Smith Act and a good many jailed under the Smith Act were Nazis, not Communists. And you claimed
and that is not true.
Actually I did post a source, a law school text book. I have not read your gentleman's book, nor do I have it in front of me or available so I cannot refute his claims directly at this time. I don't really have any interest in putting alot of work in doing so either. I'm relatively comfortable with law school textbooks in the interim and my personal interest isn't in an exact number anyway. I wouldn't find 300 americans shocking and deplorable but 100 acceptable. Being less wrong doesn't make it any more right. I would make the same arguement for 50 people, 25 people, 10 people, etc. Putting the hollywood ten in prison for their political affiliations was wrong.
Regarding the smith act, McCarthy's involvement in its creation is irrelevant, its his abuse of it and other powers that I'm interested in. A man doesn't have to create the tools he uses to do bad things with them.
Ultimately what I'm looking for when I want to see the potential negative impact he had is if americans (in any number) wound up in jail because of his use of bad laws, if americans wound up without work because of nameless accusers and secret accusations under programs he ran, if the man used tactics for his investiagation that most would consider poor. At its very core I find the concept of secret lists, harassment and jailtime based on political affiliation, or not getting the right to face your accuser or fight the charges against you decidely unamerican and a blow to everything our country supposedly stands for. If we're talking about 10 americans, I still don't see how his actions aren't a blemish on american values.
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