Hunting/Deer Rifle Accuracy

[deerhunter61]

All,

I have asked a lot of questions about my CZ 6.5x55 Swede and the accuracy of it and we have had discussions about this. I wanted to start a thread that hopefully will help me and perhaps others understand accuracy for Hunting/Deer rifles. More to the point is expectations of these rifles.

Here is what I have been able to get (the best) with my deer rifles to date and also appr how old the rifle is...also I have been reloading for 10 months now.

Rifle_________Model____________Caliber_________3 shot Group_______Age
Browning_____BBR______________270____________0.49_____________28years
CZ__________American 550______6.5x550_________0.90_____________2 months
Remington____CDL______________7mm-08________1.06______________6 months
Ruger________Mark II___________280____________0.44______________10 months
Browning_____BBR______________7mm Rem Mag___0.44______________28 years
Remington____BDL______________300 Rem Mag____0.38______________25 years

These groups are the best the rifles have done and I have been able to duplicate the loadsand results when I reloaded and verified the performance. I realize they are not 5 or 10 shot groups but when I am loading to find a good bullet/powder combo I load 3 bullets and shoot them and then when I find a group like I did with the 270 I reload 3 bullets and then fire again to make sure I can duplicate the performance. The expectation I have for the reshoot when I shoot a 1/2 inch group at 100 yards is to be able to at least shoot a 3 shot group of less an inch. If I can do this I reload 5 rounds and do it again. If I can shoot a 1 inch group with 5 shots or close to it then I have found a load I will load up for hunting.

So this is my process. As you can see when I have spoke about shooting less than an inch with my hunting rifles at a hundred yards it is simply because I have these rifles that will do it. Note that the 6.5x55 is the second worse of all the rifles I have and it brings a lot a frustration to me. After all I read about this gun I was sure when I bought it it would shoot consistent groups of less than an inch and perhaps even 1/2 inch groups. I have not given up on it but to get the .90 group took a while. Based on the performance of my 270 this past Saturday if I can duplicate the performance it will be in the stand with me opening morning and the 7Mag will be in the truck as a back up.

So the point of this thread now is "What is the performance of your Deer Rifles" and when reloading for them what is your expectation? What is your standard?

Do you think I place too much importance on finding a round that will perform at less than an inch? Is the type of accuracy above from deer rifle standard?

Also look at the performance of the older rifles....I have heard that a lot of the newer ones will perform better but according to my results they simply do not perform better...maybe the same...perhaps actually a little worse?

Thanks,

 

[BsChoy]

I started reloading with the .5 or better expectation of ALL of my rifles but soon realized that I shoot most animals well within 100 yards here in Northeastern NY so 1-1.5 is sufficient but it does need to be consistently there not almost all the time!

 

[NCsmitty]

Of equal or greater importance to grouping, is the ability to hit the POA with the first shot from a cold barrel. Some rifles won't do this, but will shoot good groups from a warm barrel or after fouling shots.

NCsmitty

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't have a large inventory of hunting rifles. Have gotten rid of things over the years and have what I use which is a Remington Model 700 BDL in 270 win. It easily shoots 1" groups at 100 yds and I don't have much need for better unless I'm just punching paper. I use 22's for that mostly.

I generally expect 1 MOA accuracy and if one does better, then it's a bonus.

 

[Shawnee]

"Do you think I place too much importance on finding a round that will perform at less than an inch? "


Yes, definitely.

 

[longrifleman]

"Do you think I place too much importance on finding a round that will perform at less than an inch? "


Yes, definitely.

No.

You've reduced one variable about to the max possible. NCsmitty's point would be my next test. Try your load from a cold barrel to make sure it is repeatable. If possible, try under a variety of conditions ie, cold, hot, wet or anything else that might affect your shot wherever you hunt.

Bench accuracy may well not be the factor that determines the best hunting rifle. I'd rather have the one that "fits" better in actual field conditions. All the groups you posted are plenty accurate to kill whitetails.

 

[Art Eatman]

I generally try two or three powder/bullet combinations to see what works the best from among them. I'll do a little tweaking on the forearm, sometimes, for a general improvement.

Sure, that I usually can get inside one MOA is nice, but for Bambi it's not all that important. I'm more picky about varmint rifles when such as prairie dogs are what I'm after.

Given the common ranges for Bambi, anything inside two MOA is plenty good.

What's most important to me is that the first shot from an ambient-termperature barrel is the same today as it was last week when I did the sight-in.

 

[plinky]

How much precision you need depends on the shot you will take. At 100 yds or less, almost any rifle is "accurate enough". At 400 yds, a 2 MOA rifle combined with human factors would make the shot iffy. I don't look for that type of shot anyway but I would not take it with a 2 MOA gun.

Still, trying to get the best out of any rifle is fun and gets you very familiar with the equipment. If you're here you are probably a "gunny" so you are morally obligated to shoot to the best of your ability.

I agree that a consistant POI is at least as important as sheer grouping. I had a M70 carbine that would make nice groups but you never knew where the group would be. Probably could have worked that out but as it stood it was not a good hunting rifle even though it shot @ 1 MOA.

 

[Old Grump]

At 100 yards I get 4" with shotgun slugs in Winchester and Mossberg, same with black powder 50 cal. 3" with 32 Win Spcl, 2" with 7MM mag, 1" with 300 WBY and 3/4" with 308 and I wouldn't hesitate to use any of them on a deer at that range. Any deer rifle you can cover the first 3 shots on a target with the palm of your hand is good enough. All the guns above were 5 shot groups, the black powder gun was 4 shot group, after that it opens up a little. Take that back, the 300 mag and 7MM mag were 3 shot groups.

 

[deerhunter61]

Old Grump

THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE! And your response.

 

[Slamfire]

So the point of this thread now is "What is the performance of your Deer Rifles" and when reloading for them what is your expectation? What is your standard?

Three inches at 100 yards is better than I can hold with a lightweight deer rifle, unsupported. I have proven to myself, that sitting, I could barely hold the four inch black with a 1.25" capable rifle at 100 yards. I had just finished shooting a High Master score in Highpower, in all my gear. But when it came to an after rifle match, banging away with a lightweight scoped deer rifle, no coat, no glove, hasty sling, the black was all I could hold.

So, a 3 MOA rifle would do, out to 100 yards.

Busted a deer a M27 Finnish Nagant at 20 feet. Did not need a MOA rifle for that.

My limitation is based on me, not the rifles.

 

[elmerfudd]

For where I hunt, 12 MOA would probably be sufficient, but I'm only satisfied with that kind of accuracy if it's being delivered by a musket.

I pretty much expect 1 MOA from my commercial bolt actions and 3 MOA from my autoloaders. Why? Because those are reasonable expectations of what decent firearms will deliver. Milsurps are another story. With those you largely get what you get. Some are tackdrivers and some are pigs.

 

[cliffy]

Rifle vs Human Accuracy

If one day produces a 1" group and the next day does not, is that rifle error? I have days of one-hole groups, but NOT always. Same conditions; same rifle; same me. I think the "ME" is the single most variant variable. Cliffy

 

[ImARugerFan]

When it comes time to drop a deer, the difference between a 1 and 2 inch group at 100 yards is much less significant than the difference between your ability to shoot off a bench rest and your ability to shoot in the field.

 

[woof]

Exactly. People talk about 1 inch groups but most deer are shot at well under 100 yards and I doubt there is a single person on this board that can shoot a 1 inch group offhand at 100 yards. The way these threds read you would think they are hunters who take bench rests out in the field with them.

 

[deerhunter61]

ImARugerFan and cliffy

When it comes time to drop a deer, the difference between a 1 and 2 inch group at 100 yards is much less significant than the difference between your ability to shoot off a bench rest and your ability to shoot in the field.

ImARuferFan, I agree with you completely. I hunt in a box blind so I will have a stable rest when I hunt in there. It will not be like benchrest shooting but it will be a place where I should be able to have a good rest to set the forearm on.

If one day produces a 1" group and the next day does not, is that rifle error? I have days of one-hole groups, but NOT always. Same conditions; same rifle; same me. I think the "ME" is the single most variant variable.

Cliffy, I have had days like this before. I know that one of the biggest variables is the ME factor. But I have also found that since I have started reloading that the weather can effect how each of my rifles shoot.

The purpose of getting my rifles to shoot the best groups possible is simply because it is a variable I can impact. If I can get my rifles and the loads I load for them to shoot at less than an inch it increases the chances of a quick clean kill. Knowing that the rifle I am hunting with can shoot this good helps me approach each shot with ultimate confidence. Meaning I know if I do my part and I know the gun will do its part then I will make a clean kill on a deer. Also it allows me to consider shooting out to 300 yards. Anything beyond that would be a stretch for me only because I have not shot at beyond that distance in years because I do not have a place to practice at this type of range.

Thanks,

 

[GunNut]

IHMO, 99% of making a shot on an animal happens between your ears.

Put to much emphasis on group sizes and you will create doubt in your mind which will come into play when you pull the trigger on that big buck.

The first shot is really the one that matters the most, as the barrel warms up the rounds will tend to move up, in my experience.

I for one cannot steady myself and my rifle enough to shoot 1/2" groups, and have no intention of bring a gun vise out into the woods with me.

 

[Shawnee]

Many hunters/shooters really need to think a wee bit more about that "best groups possible" concept.

It's common to come across this 2-part situation.....


Situation Part A The Capability of the Rifle/load - A citizen has a rifle that he/she took to the range with factory ammo and, shooting from the bench, he/she got a group of let's say 1.75"

Situation Part B The Capability of the Shooter - This same citizen has never fired a shot from the rifle from an unsupported offhand position - OR - from offhand with a hasty-sling - OR from an offhand "barricade" position - OR from a field kneeling position - OR - or from a field sitting position - OR - even from a prone position. NEITHER have they fired the rifle at 150yds. nor 200yds. nor with their left foot in poison ivy while their right foot is in the air on the other side of the barbed-wire fence which has them snagged in the crotch.

OK -

Part A is a teensy-tiny "variable"

Part B is a huge variable on the order of the proverbial 800-lb. Gorrilla.


So what does our intrepid hunter now do to increase his/her chances of cleanly bagging their deer ???????

They go spend a wad of money on reloading equipment and supplies, and work for hours over the reloading and shooting benches until their 100-yd. groups shot from the bench are 0.75" in diameter instead of 1.75" in diameter.

Then they go hunting. :banghead:

Like the man says..... " Heeeeeeere's Yer Sign. "

 

[rangerruck]

the first two posts here , I am so down with, most of what we want is just plain overkill. do all your normal tweeks for accuracy to the rifle; make sure everything is tight, make sure bbl is free floated, or if not that-bedded to some degree. make sure bore is clean, lighten the trigger , all that kind of stuff.

 

[plinky]

Here's another way to judge your rifle. It may be a better test of overall consistancy. I often make a composite target of all shots fired without any sight adjustments. Here is today's composite:



And the best group of the day:



It's a heavy barreled rifle and considering that, the groups are nothing special. But I've only had it a few days and this is the first load I've made specifically for this gun. And it was windy... :end excuses: The appealling thing to me though is that every shot from clean and cold to pretty warm is about where it should be. It held zero well also, even with a different load.

About every sporter I've had would end up shooting groups half this size but none have this kind of predictability. This is not a sporter so you can't compare it with a pencil barrel lightweight, but these are the qualities I'd value at least as much as small groups. Of course if you have both you are truly blessed.

The M70 Carbine I mentioned before shot a best 3 shot of .77" but the 12 shot composite target was over 4 "....

The OP's groups are as good as I can do with a sporter but I think a composite target will tell you things that your best group won't.

As far as shooting skill, that's a different subject entirely. If you're going to shoot at any extended range at all though, an accurate rifle is not optional.

 

[deerhunter61]

Shawnee

That really does not apply here...at least I do not think it does...the 7mm Mag listed here literally put three bullets in the same hole at 100 yards a few years ago and it was with factory rounds...Hornady 139 gr. And when I say they were in the same hole I mean in the same hole. My buddy and I was looking from the bench and we were sure the scope was messed up because we could only see one hole and even discussed the possibility that all three hit there and then dismissed that because the hole was simply too small only to find when we walked up to the target there were very small crescents where the other two bullets went through. Not only that but it would consistently shoot inch groups with factory ammo ever since I have had it.

The only reason I reload now is because before last years deer season it cost me almost $40 for 20 rounds for this rifle.

I inherited my reloading equipment from my brother and already had it so this past December I started reloading. It has become a hobby and I thoroughly enjoy seeing what type of groups I can get with my rifles. And frankly have been amazed when I read of some of the groups others get when from the get go I was getting extremely good groups. I would say this is more because my rifles are special than it is from my reloading skills...I can not tell you how many little things I was not doing at first and only over the last year have learned the need to do like trimming the cases to the correct lengths. And yet I was still getting these types of groups.

As far as practicing...now that I reload I spend a lot of time at the range shooting and although I have not practiced off hand shooting etc. I have made these types of shots at moderate ranges before...50 yards or so multiple times. Also I used to squirrel hunt a lot with a 22lr where I practiced a lot of off hand shooting. I will not take a shot I am not comfortable making and as far as over thinking the shot or these rifles shooting so accurately that it fogs my brain as far as making good shots on game this has not happened to me...I know that when I do get into the woods and know that the rifle I am taking shoots extremely accurately actually has the opposite effect. It calms me...I know what my skill level is and that along with the rifle I have gives me a lot of confidence.

I will say I am hunting this year on a lease that truly has trophy deer on it and I have never had a chance to shoot a deer like this so frankly I am not sure how I will react if I see one of these deer...will I get buck fever? I know I will be nervous but how nervous? Will I be able to calm my nerves? Truth be told this is probably the reason I have been as concerned over the performance of my rifles...if and when the time comes for me to take a shot at my trophy buck this year I want to have the utmost confidence in the rifle I have in my hands...in fact I am typing this while sitting at my reloading desk preparing to reload 5 rounds for my 270 to see if I can come close to duplicating the results listed above....

At the end of the day though reloading for me is a hobby that I find a lot of satisfaction in.

 

[Shawnee]

Deerhunter....

I did not intend to characterize you, personally, with the "situation" I described, and I hope you don't take it that way.

I, too, spend a goodly bit of time "making sure of my gun/load" before I go hunting - and that even though most of them haven't changed for a long time.

The situation I described addresses the hunters who obsess over equipment to the point of completely missing the contribution they need to make. Unfortunately - that is not exactly a rare situation.

I have a very good friend who is an excellent and meticulous reloader and can hit any target with any load with any gun at 200 yds. from a shooting bench. I took him deer hunting with him using a scoped Sako rifle I've seen him shoot many tiny groups with. In the course of the weekend hunt he missed three standing deer - and the farthest one was barely 65yds. away. All the times he declined to stand up away from that bench and "fun shoot" with me came back to haunt him that weekend.

Glad to hear you're getting the chance to go after a muy grande. Remember to breathe when you see him and you'll be fine.

Good luck !

 

[deerhunter61]

Shawnee

No problem...I definately understand that there are a lot of people who simply can not shoot at game. it reminds me of a line in the "Shootest" when John Wayne was speaking to Ron Howards character about how he almost shot as good as John Wayne and John Wayne responded that the tree was not shooting back. Just because someone can shoot well at a target does not mean they can shoot game well. It is definately a different thing.

I know years ago when I went to the range to shoot I never shot well...at least at targets but give me a coke can at 50-100 yards and I would hit it everytime. Same went when I was hunting...when I shot at game I hit it.

Now do not think I have not missed. In fact about five years ago when it had been a couple of years since I had hunted and had not been shooting my rifles except to make sure they were sighted in I missed bucks two years in a row. At that point i decided if I was going to hunt I was going to go to the range and practice each year before season and since have not had the problem.

 

[deerhunter61]

I went to the range today to see if I could back up

the 270 load I found this weekend and I think I might have the round to use opening day. Todays three shot group was .88 at 100 yards. The first two bullets found the same hole. Best I can tell they were .12.

Thanks,

 

[MinnMooney]

1st off - I don't believe that 3-shot "groups" prove anything.

Compensating errors, occasionally, will produce outstanding 3-shot groups. Five shot groups (which I consider minimum) are much harder to "luck out" and get a tight group. This is when some excuse happy riflemen start talking 'flyers'.


2nd - Deer hunting rifles - as opposed to varmint hunting rifles - need only be accurate enough to hit a 3" circle at the range that you expect to have your farthest shot. If that happens to be 75yds in dense woods then just about any rifle should suffice. If you hunt an open field where a 300 yd shot might present itself then a rifle needs to shoot MOA.

All of examples that you've shown look to be capable deer rifles. However, they are only minimum accuracy for a varmint rifle and some don't even live up to minimum. I'd have to see an AVERAGE 5-shot group to give any further opinions.


The proper BULLET is more important than ultra-accuracy.

Don't pick your deer bullet just because it groups 10% better than another. Pick it because it shoots reasonable groups but kills fast and humanely.