Hunting/Deer Rifle Accuracy

[deerhunter61]

MinnMooney

I do not disagree with what you are saying at all. But for me personally this is about reloading accuracy as well as rifle accuracy and when I reload I only load 3 powder/bullet combinations to see if the rounds are accurate. If I can find a 3 round group that performs at an inch or better then as I stated earlier I try to duplicate it. This is primarily to save $$$$. If I can duplicate it then I work it up with more loads and see what the groups perform like then. I am not really trying to get benchrest accuracy here. And for the groups listed above when I take them to 5-10 shot groups they invaribly will be a little bigger but frankly that is more on me and my shooting skills than it is the rifle or loads. I tend to get a little impatient waiting for the barrels to cool and last night in order to shoot all 5 rounds out of this rifle and 6 rounds out of my 6.5 I was more impatient than normal and although I did allow the barrel to cool down perhaps this time not quite enough....? and then for the last two rounds I rushed and yanked a shot...AGH. But the 5th shot when I settled down I put it right back in the middle of the group.

Everything stated above has a lot of value. I guess my point to all of this is that I do not want to start with 3 round groups of greater than an inch to work up 5-10 shot groups and then take those into the woods to hunt with. At the end of the day is it possible that some of the 1.5 inch groups or above could shoot 10 shot groups at the same MOA of some of my less than 1 inch groups...possibly...maybe even probably. Perhaps that is something I can test.

 

[deerhunter61]

Oh and I meant to mention...

For those who spoke about "cold barrel" accuracy. Using the first target I adjusted the scope and the first shot from the cold barrel was 1/2 inch high and 1/4 inch to the left. Not bad there...the second was in the same hole as the first. This is as you all stated what is needed here. I will be reloading some more and taking it to the range perhaps as early as this weekend to see if it will shoot the same. At least after I adjust the scope so that it should shoot dead on.

 

[woof]

Why on earth people seek and judge a tool to do a job under certain parameters (make a clean kill on a deer at reasonable distance shooting offhand in the woods), and then select and judge the tool on performance under a very different set of parameters (benchrest/sandbags, ideal conditions) is beyond me. Clearly the most important tool in the deer shooting scenario is the shooter himself. The rifle should be chosen based on its ability to help him do that under those conditions and nothing else. People who want bench rifles should buy bench rifles. People who want deer rifles should "know" what rifle characteristics help them do their job, and the difference between 1 and 2 inch groups isn't among them.

I think the weak link is that very few deer hunters have fired enough shots in the woods, cold, maybe wet, maybe uphill or down, and very offhand to know what characteristics in a rifle will help them do that. So they judge on bench groups, like buying a car solely on horsepower.

 

[deerhunter61]

Woof

I think you are over reacting a little here...

"Why on earth people seek and judge a tool to do a job under certain parameters (make a clean kill on a deer at reasonable distance shooting offhand in the woods), and then select and judge the tool on performance under a very different set of parameters (benchrest/sandbags, ideal conditions) is beyond me."

It is not about the benchrest....It is about the rifle being able to perform the job.

We are not talking about the hunter and his ability to make the shot in the field...YES this is the most important part...if a hunter can not hit the broad side of a barn then whether the rifle will shoot 1,2 or 3 inch groups is irrelevant.

But for this thread it is about the accuracy of the rifle. If a rifle shoots 1 inch groups in the best conditions what will it do when as you say the weather is bad or the shot is awkward? Not only that but when I sight my rifles in I do not go into the woods and do it while shooting at all different types of conditions etc. I go to the range...and make sure the gun is completely bagged so it does not move when sighting in. This part is not about me. It is about the rifle and its performance. Once the gun is sighted in then you shoot and practice with it in the ways you have mentioned.

If a gun shoots an inch on the bench what will it do when you are trying to shoot game off hand etc? The group will be larger as a rule. So if you are shooting 2-3 inch groups on the bench and you shoot an offhand shot at a 100 yards will it be larger still? I think it will definately be a bigger group. I simply think that if you have a rifle that will perform better it gives the shooter more confidence and it also gives the shooter a better chance to make a quality kill verses wounding an animal.

 

[Slamfire]

If a gun shoots an inch on the bench what will it do when you are trying to shoot game off hand etc? The group will be larger as a rule. So if you are shooting 2-3 inch groups on the bench and you shoot an offhand shot at a 100 yards will it be larger still? I think it will definately be a bigger group. I simply think that if you have a rifle that will perform better it gives the shooter more confidence and it also gives the shooter a better chance to make a quality kill verses wounding an animal.

Having been an across the course shooter for a couple of decades now, shooter's errors are in Minute of feet. Sometimes Minute of Yard (been there ) Rifle error is usually a lot less.

What everyone needs is Practice, practice, practice.

 

[woof]

A very accurate rifle in the hands of a hunter whose real world offhand shooting skills are limited will merely shoot more exactly where the shooter MIS-aimed. More accurate rifles don't make better shooters any more than high priced golf clubs make better golfers.

 

[deerhunter61]

woof

Now you are on my subject...GOLF. I am not sure how good you are but I was a 10 handicap before I got those high priced golf clubs...and then over a 1 1/2 period became a 3 handicapper so....I disagree with you here...

Now let me explain a little further...my new clubs were custom fitted. You can not imagine the difference it makes when you are standing over a 150 yard shot and you know that you are going to hit the ball within 5 yards of the pin. That leaves you a 15 foot putt for birdie. Not all of the shots of course are going to be there but enough...IT IS ABOUT CONFIDENCE! It is truly amazing what great equipment can do for your game!

And since you brought up golf...the difference between those on the tour and those that are not is between the ears! It is mental! CONFIDENCE! Those on the tour know they can make the 6 foot putt for par that will win the match!

No difference with shooting...at least not from the perspective of knowing the rifle you have in your hands will perform and hit the target you are shooting at!


I know.... you are different...you can break par on the golf course using a broom stick....

 

[Shawnee]

Deerhunterr...

Would more or less agree with you on the value of good golf equipment (and confidence) but gotta say - the real difference between those on tour and schmucks like you and me is you and I pay to play on courses the pros wouldn't play on if their life depended on it. Compared to what they play on the best we've ever had was a goat pasture. Just look at the difference when they get on the links-style courses in the British Isles. Not much of that 20-under-par there.

But back to the rifles - nothing wrong with what you're doing. It can only help and it's fun.

 

[deerhunter61]

Shawnee

I agree with you a little bit on the golf but I have had the opportunity to play a lot of GREAT golf courses...Not sure if you have heard of "The Ocean Course" in SC, "Karsten Creek", Stillwater OK, "TPC" at Los Colinas in Dallas to name a few but they are some of the best courses in the country. There are two main differences between these courses and the goat tracks. First the condition of the courses are fantastic. The greens are immaculate and as a rule roll incredibly well. That is the good. The bad...they are as a rule a lot harder if you do not keep the ball in the fairway and on the green. When you can do those two things you can flat score on them.

I really quit playing public courses a few years ago. They simply are not a lot of fun to play. I rarely play on Public courses because of the same thing a lot of hunters encounter on Public hunting land...People who either do not know what they are doing, do not know the rules, and worst of all simply do not care.

woof, Since you brought up golf...I take it you never go to the golf range to hit a few balls to practice? Remember this is not "course" conditions...I take it you do not go to the practice green to practice your putting? Again not "course" conditions. The good golfers I know at the club are always on the range practicing. And when I watch them they are almost always doing so from the perfect lie. Do they occassionally practice from a tough lie...occasionally but not near as much as they do from and in perfect conditions. It is about finding the right groove. It is about preparing more from a mental perspective than a physical one.

 

[deerhunter61]

Woof

Something else I do not understand...

And before I offend anyone this is simply my perspective...

I do not understand someone who has a rifle...reloads for it and quits when they get an inch and a half group when the rifle has the potential to shoot a lot better...

Actually I do know this answer but I really wanted you to understand my perspective...It is about making sure I DO THE BEST THAT I CAN DO WITH MY RIFLES. It is simply the way I am wired. I have to know that I have done my best no matter what it is. My wife thinks I am nuts some times. Good has never been good enough for me.

When I shot a 69 in golf a couple of years ago...this was my goal for that year. I went home told my wife I had done it...but it bugged the heck out of me that I missed 4 putts inside of 12 feet for birdies that day...I was more upset with that than I was happy with the 69.

 

[woof]

I've never played golf. My analogy is to all those who substitute equipment for skill, you know - the all hat and no cattle crowd. It isn't about confidence it's about ability. Who are the best offhand shooters? Are they shooting rifles chosen for their ability to produce the tightest bench group? Of course not. Your argument only makes sense if you take your bench and rests out in the field, measure off 100 yds, and get the deer to walk by there and pause for you. The subject is silly, have the last word.

 

[Geno]

I won't field a deer rifle that is in the +1.0 MOA with handloads, because of the distances we shoot in the central Michigan bean/potato fields. Shots in the 300 to 500 yard range are by no means uncommon. In fact, I'll trade off 100 FPS in velocity, for better accuracy. That's just me.

At present, I am trying to decide do I field the 0.75 MOA Mark V in .300 Win Mag, or the 0.25 MOA Vanguard in .270 Win. At these extremes in accuracy, I don't see that it will make any real-life difference. If I see a deer within 500 yards, while carrying either rifle, the deer will be in the freezer by day's end.

Specifically, for me, it goes to confidence in my equipment. Realistically, a 2.0 MOA rifle could likely do as well, but not for me.

 

[deerhunter61]

I simply think we have different perspectives on this...

I am not disagreeing with you on the need for field practice. I do not disagree with you on the difference regarding benchrest shooting and field shooting.

And frankly if I AM hunting in my box blind then I will have a good rest for my rifle.

This is not about the above for me...

If shooting factory loads then you do the best you can with those. This is about reloading and making sure you do the best you can to find the bullet/powder combo that shoots best out of your gun. Then once that is done you take it to the field and practice.

I can shoot in the field. Over half the deer I have shot have been off hand. Do I do that now or would I...Only if I forgot my shooting sticks. As I have gotten older I do not have the steady hands as I did when I was younger.

 

[deerhunter61]

Thanks Doc...sounds like we are on the same page.

 

[Geno]

Sure does. The "family farm" is 3/4 of a mile north-south, by 5/8 of a mile east-west. That's a lot of open turf. We have arial photos of the property, and we set up to cover the entire property, while assuring all of us are out of each other's line-of-fire. I know my zone, and my rifle. Sometimes I have to just sit and bide my time while a cousin takes a nice buck that's barely out my my zone. But, we all celebrate each other's successes...and failures.

Remind me to tell you the story about my daughter, "Shot it Dad!! It's a buck...I can see him wiggling his antlers!"

That was the first time, and last time, that I ever hunted without a scope. :banghead:

 

[Ky Larry]

The heart-lung area of a whitetail deer is approxmately the size of a phone book. If you can a target that size at the range you intend to shoot at a deer, you can be confident of making a quick, humane kill.
I understand what you are doing with bench shooting your deer rifles. If I have a rifle that shoots 1" groups, I want to make it shoot .75" groups. If we weren't a little anal about our shooting we would never improve. Plus, it's a good reason to get more trigger time. Enjoy.

 

[cliffy]

An eight-inch dinner plate

Walking away from my front and rear benchrest accessories, out into the real world of off-hand unsteadiness, I realized a carry-sling had more than one purpose. Adjusted properly, it became a third arm of steadiness. A "HASTY SLING" set-up is a quick, most convenient means of steady support. With most peoples' ability to use the Internet, look-up HASTY SLING on nearly any search engine. If one's left elbow is directly vertical under the firearm, and the right elbow extends EXACTLY horizontal, if one is a right-handed shooter, merely add a cobra-style sling into the equation for incredible steadiness. Left foot slightly forward. cliffy

 

[nathan]

Factory ammo grping 1 inch at 100 yds on sandbag is good enough on a scoped hunting rifle . If I get 2 inch grp with open sights in my surplus rifles such as Garand and M 39 or K 98 then Im very satsfied. The rifle is ready for hunting.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Looks like the lesson is, the older the rifle, the smaller the group.

 

[cliffy]

Practice of any KIND . . .

Never go hunting without any sort of range practice. Not good economy of ammo or firearm control. Shooting a mere twenty rounds prior to hunting deer is at best the very least. Since I shoot a hundred-plus rounds a week throughout the year, I'd call myself an avid rifle shooter. I realize most people cannot do this, but the more shots taken, the more accurate and the more familiar one will become with one's firearm. Don't take it out on a deer, if you don't practice: better a clean-miss than a butt-wound. Hunting is about much more than killing a buck: commoradery, being in nature, story-telling are in equal parts important aspects of the hunt. The delicious, healthful meat available from the kill is just one small part of hunting. Hunting "unsuccessfully" never actually happens. Buck Fever is never something to be ashamed of. It's happened to almost all of us. The more one practices shooting, the less BUCK FEVER strikes, but never be ashamed of it, since it merely shows how human we are. cliffy

 

[deerhunter61]

woof

I have been thinking a little about a couple of your comments....

"A very accurate rifle in the hands of a hunter whose real world offhand shooting skills are limited will merely shoot more exactly where the shooter MIS-aimed. More accurate rifles don't make better shooters any more than high priced golf clubs make better golfers."

And then....

"I've never played golf".

I am amazed that you used an analogy when you then come back and admit you do not play golf...if you do not play then how in the world can you possibly use this analogy? Equipment makes all the difference in the world. Both in Golf and in Shooting. This really brings into question your knowledge on shooting.