Hunting rifle and cartridge for west Texas deer

[Dr T]

Blackbuck have a habit of not respecting fences. It was kind of freaky when we first caught one on a game camera.

They are quite a bit bigger than a whitetail, however. I worked be comfortable hunting one with a 6.5 cm. But it is a big goat and would probably be a bit gamey.

 

[Savage30L]

I don't consider "the hill country west of Austin" as "West Texas", unless you're talking about the western edge of the Edwards Plateau.

The biggest, most magnificent buck I ever saw was out in real west Texas, somewhere south of Marathon, right next to the edge of route 385, back in the mid-80s. He was a Mulie, standing in the midst of a herd of Merino sheep. Easily 300 pounds on the hoof, probably more, with a rack with at least 9 points on each side, definite Booner. I doubt I'll ever see another buck like that one.

I searched around on the internet for a picture of a mule deer with a comparable rack. I'd say the buck I saw out there had one at least as good as the one in this photo (although his main beams were thicker at the base):

By the way, the best whitetail buck I ever saw was in Texas, too, but at the other end of the state...down near Beeville, in the southeast. And it had a rack that was about comparable to the rack on the mulie above, but clearly a whitetail rack.

Edited to add: To get to the question of the original poster, will you be shooting "suitcase deer", or big western mulies? For the former, just about anything will work, as long as you can shoot it well. For bigger deer, 30-06 is a good choice, because you can find ammo for it anywhere, and there is such a large bullet selection available in loaded ammo, that you don't have to take up handloading. Be practical.

 

[crestoncowboy]

First choice would be the .270 Winchester.

Any of the 6.5mm offerings(Mauser/Remington/Creedmoor) would work as well.

As for rifles? Bottom would be the Mossberg Patriot Vortex scoped combo, either synthetic or walnut, which run ~ $450-$580, depending.

Or the Ruger equivilant, ~ $550.

Lots of good choices up from there - Winchester M70, Remington M700, Bergara B-14, Tikka T3, etc.

At 1000 yards you would just as well have a slingshot as a patriot. A savage would be the minimum I'd suggest since you can actualy build a 1000 yard savage. I have the moss berg/crossfire 2 combo in 300 mag with the factory 22 inch barrel. Ive hunted with mine for probably 5 years. It's plenty good for 300 ish yards but it's easily the least accurate 300 mag I own . My uncle has the same gun in 243 and its less accurate than my own 300. I have a newer ab3 Browning that shoots consistent but like the patriot, building it to a good long range rifle would be all custom. Nothing is made for those guns. A savage or Remington 700 would be far easier. Triggers, stock, barrel, etc etc are available

500 yards is plenty "long range" and farther than most should even consider. 300 mag, 270, or 7mm is plenty good for those.

 

[Charlie98]

We will cull interior deer. About 40 years ago I identified a genetic defect in our native herd that led to malformed horns.

Tell me more about that. One of my customers showed me a rack he just mounted, the left antler took a 90^ turn after the first spike, but otherwise was proportionate with the other, normal, side. We were both scratching our heads.

that you don't have to take up handloading.

Too late... I've only been handloading 30+ years...

Although I am willing to buy dies for any cartridge my brother winds up with, economics dictate that it would be better for something I already am tooled up for... that is... 6.5CM, .308, .30-06... unless he just wants to go old skool... .45-70, .348WCF, or .30-30. He has been actively looking for a Bergara B-14 in 6.5CM... so that ultimately may be his answer.

 

[Gun-Reck]

At 1000 yards you would just as well have a slingshot as a patriot.

Who is spec'ing a 1,000 yard hunting rifle?

 

[Okie_Poke]

I'm late to the party and have little to add that hasn't already been said. But count me as another vote for a Tikka or Bergara in one of the sensible cartridges others have suggested. I have nothing against other rifle makes, but my last three bolt rifle purchases have been one of those two brands and I'm a fan. The Bergara B14 uses the Remington 700 footprint, so most stocks, triggers, scope bases, etc. that will work for the R700 will work for it too. Bergara's chief downside, in my opinion, is that most of their rifles tend to be on the heavier side. And a feature the B14 shares with the Remington is that the safety does not lock the bolt, so if that bothers your brother then it's something to consider. The Tikka action is it's own thing but there's plenty of support for it. You can get a very lightweight Tikka under $1,000, if your brother is going for that, and the safety locks the bolt if that's a feature that matters to him. The recoil pad sucks, though, and so I think the Limbsaver recoil pad for the Tikka is $40 well spent. Both have very smooth push feed actions and my copies have been quite accurate out of the box.

 

[.38 Special]

With regard to the 1500 ft-lb rule...

It might be a useful - if very general - rule of thumb for rifles using cup-and-core bullets. I've shot a good few critters with handgun cartridges making far below 1000 ft-lbs, though, which worked just fine. And even my heaviest English war bow with 3/8" shafts is only getting about 50 ft-lbs of energy, and that arrow does shocking things in flesh...

 

[Savage30L]

With regard to the 1500 ft-lb rule...

It might be a useful - if very general - rule of thumb for rifles using cup-and-core bullets. I've shot a good few critters with handgun cartridges making far below 1000 ft-lbs, though, which worked just fine. And even my heaviest English war bow with 3/8" shafts is only getting about 50 ft-lbs of energy, and that arrow does shocking things in flesh...

And a .50-caliber patched lead ball pushed by 90 grains of Pyrodex starts out well below 1500ft-lbs, but will shoot clean through a deer.

 

[Okie_Poke]

With regard to the 1500 ft-lb rule...

It might be a useful - if very general - rule of thumb for rifles using cup-and-core bullets. I've shot a good few critters with handgun cartridges making far below 1000 ft-lbs, though, which worked just fine. And even my heaviest English war bow with 3/8" shafts is only getting about 50 ft-lbs of energy, and that arrow does shocking things in flesh...

I think of it like this. It's certainly not gospel, but it can still be a useful general rule of thumb. I use 1500 ft lbs for elk and the like, and 1000 ft lbs for class 2 game (or 800 ft lbs for the little deer I chase at home). Again, it's a general rule of thumb for centerfire rifle cartridges with traditional cup-and-core bullets. It doesn't apply to things like bows or muzzleloaders or even pistols, which wound/kill differently than bullets from centerfire rifles travelling over 2000 fps. On that point, though, with modern bullets I'm more concerned with retaining minimum velocity for bullet expansion than I am retaining raw energy at the target. Energy on impact doesn't kill anything. Still, I think it's a useful rule of thumb to keep in mind when selecting the right tool for the job, especially for a beginner. Same with the 24 caliber minimum for deer. It's legal to shoot deer with a centerfire 22 where I live, and I've done it without problem. But I've also done it with problems, even selecting appropriate bullets, and I don't recommend other folks use a 22 caliber centerfire for deer even though (i) I probably will again, and (ii) lots of people ethically kill deer with 22-250s and 223s every year.

And a .50-caliber patched lead ball pushed by 90 grains of Pyrodex starts out well below 1500ft-lbs, but will shoot clean through a deer.

Indeed. But see above. Every general rule of thumb has it's limits.

 

[crestoncowboy]

His buddy sent him a picture of a deer he dropped at nearly 1000yds

The op. In the opening post.......

Who is spec'ing a 1,000 yard hunting rifle?

 

[Roverguy]

270 Win; 280 Remington 6.5CM among the more commonplace. 28 Nosler 277 Fury, 7mm PRC for the more a la mode. Savage Axis, Mossberg Patriot, Ruger American, Howa/Weatherby, Bergara (coupl le of flavors) Tikka (all good).

 

[LoonWulf]

Tell me more about that. One of my customers showed me a rack he just mounted, the left antler took a 90^ turn after the first spike, but otherwise was proportionate with the other, normal, side. We were both scratching our heads.



Too late... I've only been handloading 30+ years...

Although I am willing to buy dies for any cartridge my brother winds up with, economics dictate that it would be better for something I already am tooled up for... that is... 6.5CM, .308, .30-06... unless he just wants to go old skool... .45-70, .348WCF, or .30-30. He has been actively looking for a Bergara B-14 in 6.5CM... so that ultimately may be his answer.

If he can swing it and likes the shape/weight, my Dads Premier HMR has been phenomenal....

 

[Gun-Reck]

The op. In the opening post.......

Sorry… I forgot to say that he does NOT intend on making shots at 1000yds… we both agreed that it would be unrealistic, and quite honestly, inhumane… at his skill level. Heck… at MY skill level.

I’ll read all of the comments when I get home tonight…

Apparently not.

 

[2ndtimer]

I don't have any need for a 1,000 yard rifle where I hunt, but if I did, I'd choose the .270 WSM. The ballistics on it are astounding, at least on paper.
There's a Weatherby Vanguard on Gunbroker right now with a starting bid of $549 and plenty of others well under $1k.

All of what you said is true. The .270 WSM is an outstanding cartridge for long range medium game. The only problem is that ammunition and brass has become next to impossible to find, even online. If the manufacturers would make some available (for a reasonable price), it would be an excellent choice.

 

[crestoncowboy]

A cartridge I would recommend for 1000yd shooting, is not the same as a 1000yd cartridge for hunting, if you see what I mean.

He also said......

Apparently not.

So I suppose he changed his original ask. And lowered expectation. Lol

 

[Charlie98]

He also said......

So I suppose he changed his original ask. And lowered expectation. Lol

No, not really. I admit to some confusion in my OP... my brother's friend, the one who owns the property they are going to hunt on, is making the 1000yd shots... not my brother. Both he and I agree that it would be inhumane and foolhardy to hunt at that range, but that is not to say I won't ever take a poke at a 1000yd target... and I'm, in fact, working my way out to that... but that has nothing to do with my brother, or my OP.

 

[crestoncowboy]

No, not really. I admit to some confusion in my OP... my brother's friend, the one who owns the property they are going to hunt on, is making the 1000yd shots... not my brother. Both he and I agree that it would be inhumane and foolhardy to hunt at that range, but that is not to say I won't ever take a poke at a 1000yd target... and I'm, in fact, working my way out to that... but that has nothing to do with my brother, or my OP.

Thats my point though. A 300 mag or 308 both kill a deer. The 300 mag and 30-06 cost the same on any base rifle (axis/patriot/a bolt 3 etc etc). The ammo is within a dollar a box from 300 mag down to 308 commercial and available at Walmart....and if he ever wants to shoot a box or anything else with you or the friend at 500-1000 yards....he will be buying another gun. May as well just get the 300 mag.

The only place the 300 loses to the 30-06 is a bit of recoil and a bit of barrel life. And the only place it loses to the 308 is a bit more of those and the longer action (and 308 are more common in a semi auto). The 300 is also belted but IME thats a non issue.

If you live in an area that has 1000 yard shooting and you have buddies who are into 1000 yard shooting and your talking about 1000 yard shooting....odds are you will eventually want to try 1000 yard shooting. The 300 mag is a perfectly good 100 yard whitetail gun (overkill? Sure) and its probably the most Common 1000 yard rifle. The 308 is a perfectly good whitetail gun at 100 yards but your talking 150 inches of drop and little energy at 1000 vs 100 with the mag. For the same money really

Thats like a guy saying he hangs out at the drag strip with his buddies and he like running a 12 second 1/4 and he needs a new car. The prius and Mustang gt are the same price which one to get.

Both are great at 60-70 mph on the highway but if they ever wash t to think about a 12 second 1/4 you don't recommend the prius.

 

[Okie_Poke]

Thats my point though. A 300 mag or 308 both kill a deer. The 300 mag and 30-06 cost the same on any base rifle (axis/patriot/a bolt 3 etc etc). The ammo is within a dollar a box from 300 mag down to 308 commercial and available at Walmart....and if he ever wants to shoot a box or anything else with you or the friend at 500-1000 yards....he will be buying another gun. May as well just get the 300 mag.

The only place the 300 loses to the 30-06 is a bit of recoil and a bit of barrel life. And the only place it loses to the 308 is a bit more of those and the longer action (and 308 are more common in a semi auto). The 300 is also belted but IME thats a non issue.

If you live in an area that has 1000 yard shooting and you have buddies who are into 1000 yard shooting and your talking about 1000 yard shooting....odds are you will eventually want to try 1000 yard shooting. The 300 mag is a perfectly good 100 yard whitetail gun (overkill? Sure) and its probably the most Common 1000 yard rifle. The 308 is a perfectly good whitetail gun at 100 yards but your talking 150 inches of drop and little energy at 1000 vs 100 with the mag. For the same money really

Thats like a guy saying he hangs out at the drag strip with his buddies and he like running a 12 second 1/4 and he needs a new car. The prius and Mustang gt are the same price which one to get.

Both are great at 60-70 mph on the highway but if they ever wash t to think about a 12 second 1/4 you don't recommend the prius.

I respectfully disagree with this. If your brother is after a hunting rifle, then buy a hunting rifle---i.e., a rifle designed and set up for hunting rather than target shooting. For deer, having that rifle chambered in 308 makes imminently more sense to me than chambering it in 300 win mag. The difference in recoil is more than a little bit. In an 8 pound rifle with both rounds shooting 165s, by my calculation, the 300 is going to kick with 72% more energy than the 308 (31 ft pounds vs 18). I don't care who's doing the shooting, they'll shoot the 308 better.

If your brother decides he wants to stretch the legs on his hunting rifle at the range, he can still do that with a 308 (or 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm-08). Yes, the drop and drift are going to make it challenging, but folks have been shooting 308 at 600-1000 yards for a while (I acknowledge that 1000 yards is pushing the transonic barrier with the 308, but my point holds. If this crossover use case is that important to him, then a 6.5 Creedmoor may be a better choice). Laying down prone behind an 8 pound 308 for a little target shooting is going to be way more enjoyable than laying down prone behind a lightweight 300. If your brother decides he wants to get serious about shooting targets at longer ranges, then he's going to want a rifle set up specifically for that endeavor anyway, regardless of what cartridge his hunting rifle is chambered for.

 

[Charlie98]

I respectfully disagree with this. If your brother is after a hunting rifle, then buy a hunting rifle---i.e., a rifle designed and set up for hunting rather than target shooting. For deer, having that rifle chambered in 308 makes imminently more sense to me than chambering it in 300 win mag. The difference in recoil is more than a little bit. In an 8 pound rifle with both rounds shooting 165s, by my calculation, the 300 is going to kick with 72% more energy than the 308 (31 ft pounds vs 18). I don't care who's doing the shooting, they'll shoot the 308 better.

If your brother decides he wants to stretch the legs on his hunting rifle at the range, he can still do that with a 308 (or 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm-08). Yes, the drop and drift are going to make it challenging, but folks have been shooting 308 at 600-1000 yards for a while (I acknowledge that 1000 yards is pushing the transonic barrier with the 308, but my point holds. If this crossover use case is that important to him, then a 6.5 Creedmoor may be a better choice). Laying down prone behind an 8 pound 308 for a little target shooting is going to be way more enjoyable than laying down prone behind a lightweight 300. If your brother decides he wants to get serious about shooting targets at longer ranges, then he's going to want a rifle set up specifically for that endeavor anyway, regardless of what cartridge his hunting rifle is chambered for.

That's it, in a nutshell.

I've shot both my .308, and a 6.5CM side-by-side, and I was amazed at how easy it was to shoot. I will go through sessions where I will shoot 200-300 rounds of .308 through various rifles, shooting prone or off the bench, and I can tell the next day that I did; the 6.5CM is like a heavy 5.56mm... whoopty-do. I would NOT want to run 200 rounds of 300WM through a rifle in an afternoon.

I think I have my brother settled down enough to look at this more logically... and I'm hoping the load workup will get him into shooting more, anyway. I don't want him to bludgeon himself with something like the .300WM or a 7mmMAG... and see him give up. I know his capabilities, he knows his capabilities... a short-action rifle in a 400-500yd cartridge should be a good starting point for him. If he ever wants to move beyond that... and that is quite possible... he could move up to a different rifle. What he would learn from shooting his first rifle, both at the range and on the hunt, I think would lead him to make a better informed decision for the next one.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I respectfully disagree with this. If your brother is after a hunting rifle, then buy a hunting rifle---i.e., a rifle designed and set up for hunting rather than target shooting. For deer, having that rifle chambered in 308 makes imminently more sense to me than chambering it in 300 win mag. The difference in recoil is more than a little bit. In an 8 pound rifle with both rounds shooting 165s, by my calculation, the 300 is going to kick with 72% more energy than the 308 (31 ft pounds vs 18). I don't care who's doing the shooting, they'll shoot the 308 better.

If your brother decides he wants to stretch the legs on his hunting rifle at the range, he can still do that with a 308 (or 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm-08). Yes, the drop and drift are going to make it challenging, but folks have been shooting 308 at 600-1000 yards for a while (I acknowledge that 1000 yards is pushing the transonic barrier with the 308, but my point holds. If this crossover use case is that important to him, then a 6.5 Creedmoor may be a better choice). Laying down prone behind an 8 pound 308 for a little target shooting is going to be way more enjoyable than laying down prone behind a lightweight 300. If your brother decides he wants to get serious about shooting targets at longer ranges, then he's going to want a rifle set up specifically for that endeavor anyway, regardless of what cartridge his hunting rifle is chambered for.

Where I'm at, in Appalachia, I respectfully agree with your disagreement. My LONG deer shots are 300-400. And that's when I'm on one ridge looking at another. Personally I carry a 7 lb 11 oz 257 Robert's most days. Many I just carry an anaconda or redhawk because of all the deer I've killed..... and we get unlimited does and 4 buck.....id guess 99% were under 150 yards. Our deer are on the big side though, for whitetail. I can carry it all day, or I can shoot it all day. I also have a Compact Weatherby 243.

BUT if I'm in Texas where people can see deer at 1k yards (to see 1k yards here you have to look up....a mountain/ tree line/ rock cliff or something is within 200 here almost everywhere. Lol) I'm carrying more rifle. I want all the range I can get. Not to shoot 1k yards but to be able to humanely kill as far as I can. Nothing pisses me off worse than seeing a 12 point buck at 125 yards during archery season. I can't imagine seeing a one in a lifetime trophy at 500 while I'm carrying a 243 or weak cartridge would make me feel much better. I know Ican poke a hole in a box at 500 with my weak gun..... but I'm still not going to try it at an animal. Or at least I'm going to say I wouldn't. Lol. With my magnum I KNOW I have the energy if i do my job

You don't shoot your hunting rifle enough to worry about barrel life or recoil. I shoot targets with a bolt 223, a 15 lb 300 mag, or a 20 lb 338.







I hunt with a 7 lb 257 8 lb 243 or an 9.5lb 300 mag usually




BUT I have 17 hmr and 38-55 and 300 savage up to 338 lapua and can pick and choose. There is NO WAY if I'm going to Texas or anywhere else flat im taking a 308/257/243 over my 300 or 7mm rum. (No I'm not taking a 20 lb 338 either) Since handloading was mentioned, one can download a 300 down to whatever they choose. Ive done so with varget myself. One can not help the 308. Lol

I've never seen a grown man have any issue with a normal weight 300 magnum. My 120 lb 14 year old daughter sometimes asks to take my 300 magnum patriot over her 243 sometimes. The patriot is a pretty light 300 mag. (Is also a 22 inch barrel and id recommend others over it) She shoots the mag just as well as the 243. If your flinching that's your fault. Not the gun.

If I can only have one gun... for a hunt or whatever. I'm getting enough gun. I can load down. I can't load up.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I should say "I think the patriot is pretty light for a 300 mag" but come to think of it out may be closer 9lb. It's the 22 inch crossfire combo with a sling and bipod. Synthetic stock. Don't know that I've weighed it honestly.

Her 243 is a Weatherby compact with a 2-7 crossfire 2 and bipod and sling. Also synthetic. Id say they are pretty close in weight

 

[md7]

Everyone’s got different ways of thinking and using stuff. And there’s merit to different lines of thought. Lord knows, I’m not always right.

Here’s mine. I look at rifles the same way I look at golf clubs. You don’t use a putter to drive a ball, just like you don’t putt with a driver. Different needs require different solutions.

For me, I’d rather have a dedicated hunting gun for hunting and dedicated precision rig for long range paper punching precision at distance. If I were inclined to shoot precision that is. That’s just how I think about it.

There are some crossovers, Bergara HMR comes to mind, and that’s fine if someone elects to use something like that for both. People do, and often with good outcomes.

But I like simple, relatively short, and no heavier than necessary on a hunting rig. And because often times shot opportunities require quick response (think buck on the move in rut) I don’t personally like adjustable turrets or reticles with hash marks. MPBR or 200 yard zero, basic reticle, line it up and send it. For hunting in the manner I hunt.

A one rifle, crossover solution may fit the bill for your brother. But then again, it may not. That’s just my simple way of looking at this.

 

[Jeff White]

Closed at OP’s request.