jimmyraythomason
Member
I just wish folks would say "the Xgun I had was junk" NOT "everything Xguns makes is junk".
Hypothetical for the brand bashers out there
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The attempt at trying to answer that question put author and philosopher Robert Pirsig (he wrote Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) into a psychiatric hospital for a while. But I like to live dangerously so I'll take a stab at it.
First, "quality" is a word that, like "set" or "lock," has many different senses. Each sense requires a separate definition, and collectively, those become the standard definition in total. To save time, let's look at the sense referred to here: perceived quality. This would be the assessment of a gun being well made, having good fit and finish, and being both durable and reliable.
I would judge my 686 as being a firearm of exceptional quality. It seems to have no flaws whatsoever and I don't feel that I overpayed for it - I did pay a lot but I feel that I got what I paid for. Price and performance have to be weighed against one another in judging quality. I've read here that Hi Point are the cheapest automatics and thus are not of the highest quality. But if they are reliable an owner might be satisfied with its quality, if price/performance balance acceptably.
jimmyraythomason
Member
I can agree with that assessment. I too have a Model 686 that I consider high quality. I also have an RG-22 which belonged to my late father that I carried on my trapline for 20+ years that never malfuctioned in any way. It did everything it was designed to do and did it reliably. Would I consider it the equal of the 686? Not a chance. Would I can it junk? Absolutely not.
..."Opinions are like hairs, almost everybody's got some."...
opinions are like rectums. everybody has one, and a lot of them stink.
i recall a story written by roy rogers. in it he talks about a top grade (don't recall actual model variation name) model 12 clark gable had just purchased, and was trying out for the first time at a clay pigeon range. he couldn't hit squat with it, and disgusted he offered it to roy for a vastly reduced price. it was the first gun roy rogers broke 25 with....
gunnie
opinions are like rectums. everybody has one, and a lot of them stink.
i recall a story written by roy rogers. in it he talks about a top grade (don't recall actual model variation name) model 12 clark gable had just purchased, and was trying out for the first time at a clay pigeon range. he couldn't hit squat with it, and disgusted he offered it to roy for a vastly reduced price. it was the first gun roy rogers broke 25 with....
gunnie
zxcvbob
Member
Agreed.
And yet some problems, like critical parts that fail right out of the box because they were not heat-treated, are bad enough that even one instance is enough to cast doubt on the entire brand.
(I'm just waiting for the you-know-who fanboys to show up.)
RobMoore
Member
After seeing so many of the "my gun sucks" threads, I'm convinced a generous half of the problems are caused my ignorant owners. A hefty portion of the other is owners who have failed to send a faulty gun back in for service, and complain on the internet first. There is a small minority of problems that are a failure on the part of the maker to put out a good product, and fix what doesn't come out right.
jimmyraythomason
Member
My only experience with the Browning Hi-Power pistol was bad. The gun was very well fitted and finished. It looked good ,that's why I bought it(1975). The problem was the trigger pull was atrocious. I got rid of it post-haste and have had no interest in the Hi-Power line since. I would definitely say that that Belgium made Browning was of high "quality" but it was useless to me.
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newgunmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bill
I had a Hi Point once and didn't like it and will never buy another one. If I voice that opinion here, then am I a brand basher?
well if all you say is " i dont like them and im not gonna spend my money buying another hi-point" then no its not bashing. the problem is when someone owns it for 5 minutes and doesn't like the feel and starts saying that all hi-points are crap and the jam up all the time and are only good as a ugly paper weight.
Originally Posted by Big Bill
I had a Hi Point once and didn't like it and will never buy another one. If I voice that opinion here, then am I a brand basher?
well if all you say is " i dont like them and im not gonna spend my money buying another hi-point" then no its not bashing. the problem is when someone owns it for 5 minutes and doesn't like the feel and starts saying that all hi-points are crap and the jam up all the time and are only good as a ugly paper weight.
wally
Member
Hey its pretty easy to find a paper weight that uglier and more expensive than a High Point, those Lucite blocks with a rattlesnake embedded jump quickly to mind
--wally.
larryh1108
Member
I love my Raven! I love my Phoenix Arms HP22! I love all my Llamas! Eeek! I must be gun ignorant! Wait, I love my Glock, my Kahr, my Ruger and my Browning Hi Power. How can this be? I must have a dumb twin. They all perform as expected. Some have a better fit and finish. All go bang when I pull the trigger. I must be gun ignorant.
wgaynor
Member
I love all guns... my wife thinks I'm sick.
frankiestoys
Member
These forums are to inform others, talk about guns and related items ,mags, grips, ammo,ect. Theres always going to be someone who has something negative to say, sometimes it might be even justified. With that said lets not forget that not every one has a bank roll to spend, so if a member ask ''what will x buy me?'' Give sound advise based on ones own experience not on what my freinds uncle's friends said, or'' you get what you pay for''(love that one).
Ive been on this forum for a short while theres alot of great info and then not so great, most gun owner's just love guns thats why were all here, right?
So does the guy who owns a Smith or Kimber drive a Chevy or a Dodge ? Who cares's
Maybe the guy who owns the Hi point drives a BMW, its all what you like!
Have fun and be safe.
Ive been on this forum for a short while theres alot of great info and then not so great, most gun owner's just love guns thats why were all here, right?
So does the guy who owns a Smith or Kimber drive a Chevy or a Dodge ? Who cares's
Maybe the guy who owns the Hi point drives a BMW, its all what you like!
Have fun and be safe.
jimmyraythomason
Member
that their choices are all wrong and I wouldn't do it like that. At least that's how it often appears.
mcdonl
Member
More often then not
mljdeckard
Member
I often tell my Sigma story (which is a BAD story) when someone asks about them. The fanboys THROW A FIT. I have to defend myself, explaining, "It doesn't matter if you like them, or if it's unlikely, it still happened to ME, and that's all I am saying. Just because you like it doesn't make it any less true." I only make a claim about MY experience, I never try to say what happened to anyone else.
larryh1108
Member
Hi mlj,
I am like you. If it happens to me I will share it, for whatever it is worth. Ask my opinion and I will share it with you.
Now, as the internet thing goes, if a buddy asks me if I know anything about the Sigma line and asks my opinion, I will tell him what I know first hand. (They seem solid and affordable and I've never had an issue with one). Now, I will not tell him about a guy I "met" on the internet that had a bad experience with one. That is now heresay. I believe you but I was not there to witness it. You and I never met. The problems on the net are those that heard from a friend who has a friend who surfs the net and read about a guy who had XXX happen to him. He won't tell him of the other net forums where 72 guys said they love it and 2 had a bad experience. That's why we all take what we read with a grain of salt.
I know that within 1 minute I can find bad reports from every gun ever made out there. If I want to buy a Kahr, i go to the Kahr forums. If I want a Taurus, I go to the Taurus forums, etc. I will read what guys like you and me say about them, not press releases by guys paid by them. I know I'll read bad things but if the good outweighs the bad by 100 to 1 then I know I have a good chance of getting a decent gun. If it's 10 to one then I may reassess my option.
I am like you. If it happens to me I will share it, for whatever it is worth. Ask my opinion and I will share it with you.
Now, as the internet thing goes, if a buddy asks me if I know anything about the Sigma line and asks my opinion, I will tell him what I know first hand. (They seem solid and affordable and I've never had an issue with one). Now, I will not tell him about a guy I "met" on the internet that had a bad experience with one. That is now heresay. I believe you but I was not there to witness it. You and I never met. The problems on the net are those that heard from a friend who has a friend who surfs the net and read about a guy who had XXX happen to him. He won't tell him of the other net forums where 72 guys said they love it and 2 had a bad experience. That's why we all take what we read with a grain of salt.
I know that within 1 minute I can find bad reports from every gun ever made out there. If I want to buy a Kahr, i go to the Kahr forums. If I want a Taurus, I go to the Taurus forums, etc. I will read what guys like you and me say about them, not press releases by guys paid by them. I know I'll read bad things but if the good outweighs the bad by 100 to 1 then I know I have a good chance of getting a decent gun. If it's 10 to one then I may reassess my option.
Reading his most famous book can cause a similar reaction.
That said, there's a good reason that people "bash" something. While it is hard to define "quality" comprehensively, it is generally easy to identify "crap." According to Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is crap, too, so it's easy to find.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law
The stuff I read on this and other gun boards is the same thing I hear at gun shops and shooting ranges. Some of it is imformative and some of it is B.S. Feel free to bash away. We all have the same right to be completely full of beans as everyone else.
I don't think it is so much "brand bashing" as it is bashing poor designs and poor quality control. Unfortunately the market is flooded with this now. So many have bought into this notion of guns that won't work out of the box and telling themselves it just needs to be "broken in".
Shadow 7D
Member
The issue is, quite simply, that some designs were dangerous, prone to doing things they shouldn't have, or some guns were made with substandard material prone to failure.
but the aesthetics, well that's a personal thing, much like the ergos, it changes person to person, so it you *hate* black glocks, but love everything tactikool it's an opinion, which another philosopher compared to a body part that everybody has....
but the aesthetics, well that's a personal thing, much like the ergos, it changes person to person, so it you *hate* black glocks, but love everything tactikool it's an opinion, which another philosopher compared to a body part that everybody has....
there is also the issue of negative issues being over reported.
i.e people that are unhappy are more likely to come online and complain, than people that are happy coming on to praise.
that said if you can read between the lines the forums are still useful.
however the original example of either a 2% or 5% failure rate? for a firearm (used for defense, hunting, competition) either rate would is completely unacceptable
i.e people that are unhappy are more likely to come online and complain, than people that are happy coming on to praise.
that said if you can read between the lines the forums are still useful.
however the original example of either a 2% or 5% failure rate? for a firearm (used for defense, hunting, competition) either rate would is completely unacceptable
I suppose that most people figure that their $300-1000 comprise sufficient positive feedback to the maker of the firearm.
The Internet has made the skills of critical thinking and "reading between the lines" into some of the most important skills out there. We have instant access to almost any information we want -- but we need to learn to evaluate it well.
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