I Do Not Rotate My Carry Guns

[Combat Engineer]

The 1911 pistol suffers a lot of grief due to its thumb safety. I'd sooner be disarmed of my 1911 and while the perp worked the safety or tried to find the safety I simply use a BUG to rescue the emergency.

As far as 'rotations' go, I would prefer carrying a S&W 29 as an EDC, but on many days my back cannot tolerate the heavy load, so I must choose something different.

Lets face it, when it comes to a fight its not so much about the carry option, as it is about maintaining one's cool whilst becoming Mr. Hyde.

 

[BSA1]

Your brain does weird things when it’s full of adrenalin; it likes to do the familiar. As someone said in the other thread I’ll bet my ass that people have died trying to squeeze the trigger on a 1911 because they were used to GLOCKs and forgot to take the safety off or lost time on a reload looking for the magazine release on a revolver.

Please post any scientific data to support your statement. Otherwise it is just a Internet myth.

The lack of your training and experience does not mean it holds true for other people.

 

[Hometeached1]

OP, glad you found what works for you.

I think part of the reason these type of threads keep coming up every so often and go on for pages is that the term "rotation" is being used differently by most of the posters. I would consider what the OP does as rotating carry guns (I do close to the same thing but with S&W 3rd gen pistols and DAO revolvers, the revolvers being BUGs.) since he has more than one handgun that he uses for carry.

The reason I don't use the same pistol all the time is there are times that I can only carry a J-frame do to mandated clothing and other times that it's easy to carry a full size pistol that I shoot better so why not carry it. YMMV.

 

[bannockburn]

I typically have two guns in my rotation: a Kahr CM9 and a S&W Model 638. The CM9 is DAO and that's the way I use the 638 as well. That's about as close as I get to in terms of familiarity and simplicity with my carry guns.

 

[wally]

I'm afraid if it comes down to "fast draw" your situational awareness has failed badly and you are likely doomed.

My safety depends more on my situational awareness than which gun or where I'm carrying it, having a gun only broadens the options available should things go bad.

Nothing wrong with "one gun, one place" if it works for you and doesn't interfere with you actually carrying a gun that day.

 

[mavracer]

My safety depends more on my situational awareness than which gun or where I'm carrying it

IMHO knowing which gun and where it is, is situational awareness. Learning a MOA so that it's reflex is a good thing, wanting it to be reflex because you plan to panic isn't

 

[Trunk Monkey]

The lack of your training and experience does not mean it holds true for other people.

Normally this is considered an inappropriate question but since you seem to keep harping on it perhaps you’d care to share your level of experience with us?

How many real world gun fights have you been in? How did they occur? How much thought (if any) did you have to give to which gun you were carrying? Did you make any false moves (Attempting to engage or disengage a safety that wasn’t there or forgetting to engage/disengage one that wasn’t).

If you’re going to set yourself up as the expert who is fit to make my life choices for me I’d like to see you curricula vita please

 

[Hydraulic Jack]

I carry what I choose based on the season.

 

[Manny]

My carry gun is a Ruger KLCR loaded w/ .38+p's & equipped with a CT grip. I'm a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principle and that's about as simple as it gets.

I recently got a HK UDP9c V1 DA/SA and am considering adding it to the mix, but it'll take a LONG time and LOTS of practice before I'll feel comfortable making that move. I'm not used to manual safety's on handguns at all as all my other guns are revolvers or Glocks, but I liked the size of the USPc and how it pointed & felt in my hand so I'm gonna give it a try.

 

[huntsman]

I Do Not Rotate My Carry Guns

Nor do I, add a gun (carry two) but the LCP is a constant.

 

[BSA1]

All the training I’ve been able to take since I started carrying has emphasized simplicity. I know how I act under duress and the less I have to think about the better off I am. If (God Forbid) I ever have to use a gun in self defense I don’t want to have to stop (even for a millisecond) and think about which gun I’m carrying.

You have described your limitations with using a handgun in a stressful situation. For many shooters that limitation can be overcome with training and practice shooting live ammunition. You state you are not one of them.

Your brain does weird things when it’s full of adrenalin; it likes to do the familiar. As someone said in the other thread I’ll bet my ass that people have died trying to squeeze the trigger on a 1911 because they were used to GLOCKs and forgot to take the safety off or lost time on a reload looking for the magazine release on a revolver.

You are making a claim I am asking proof of. I am asking you to back up your claim with research and any real world data. It is not my responsibility to disprove unsubstantiated claims.

The lack of your training and experience does not mean it holds true for other people.

Normally this is considered an inappropriate question but since you seem to keep harping on it perhaps you’d care to share your level of experience with us?

There are people who can shoot much better than I can which I attribute mainly to the fact that they practice more often and shoot more rounds than I do. The old saying "Practice makes perfect" applies well to me as I notice my shooting skills improve for the better the more I get out and practice.

Of course the biggest part of practice is to reinforce the good shooting skills not the bad ones.

It is your choice if you disagree with my comments in Post #4.

 

[JohnBiltz]

When someone says "rotation" to me they mean they have several guns of about the same size that they rotate carrying with similar clothes in similar conditions. In other words clothes or activities are not a determination.

Someone who normally carries a larger gun but because of circumstances such as dress, activity or restrictive carry environment is not a rotation. Winter of summer is a change of condition. Hunting or playing golf is an activity.

A guy who decides today I think I shall carry the Sig instead of the 1911 I wore yesterday or HK I'll wear tomorrow because today he feels like today is a Sig day. That is what I mean by rotation.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I recently got a HK UDP9c V1 DA/SA and am considering adding it to the mix, but it'll take a LONG time and LOTS of practice before I'll feel comfortable making that move. I'm not used to manual safety's on handguns at all as all my other guns are revolvers or Glocks, but I liked the size of the USPc and how it pointed & felt in my hand so I'm gonna give it a try.

If you wind up liking the gun there's one thing you might do; send it to HK to have it converted to LEM. This will make it DA but with a long light trigger pull and no safety. They'll do it for the cost of parts and a little labor.

 

[Bobson]

I don’t rotate carry guns.
[Blah blah blah]
Anyway that’s what works for me what are your thoughts?

Almost everyone has the ability to become "proficient" with multiple gun platforms (SAO, DAO, SA/DA, safe action, Walther mag paddle versus Walther M2 mag button, etc). The thing is, "proficient" isn't a scale with a min or max. Instead, it's dynamic, and very, very few people will ever reach their "performance cap" the way a professional athlete (or Jerry Miculek) can.

Not everyone has the physical ability to perform at the level of JM. There are people who, even if they were personally trained by JM, and devoted time every single day for a decade, might never reach the proficiency that JM has reached with a revolver. Their body just isn't up to the task, because we're all made differently. In contrast, there are some other people who, with the proper time investment and ideal coaching, could theoretically surpass JM's ability in terms of speed and accuracy. It's the same reason professional athletics is a recurring thing in certain professional athlete families: there's a genetic/talent factor to it that only some people are born with (and some aren't); but even if it is present, that talent/ability requires a lot of work and time investment before it will blossom.

So you can see that we're dealing with a dynamic system here. Everyone has their own individual top-end (JM is probably much closer to his than you are to yours), but we don't have a way to measure that top end. So the everyman instead resorts to using a vague term ("proficient," which basically means "good enough for me"), and that's also different for everyone.

So you might be "proficient" (good enough) with any manual of arms, and switching them up based on your mood when you get out of bed isn't a problem, but are you really as good as you can be? No... for an overwhelming majority of people, the answer is no, and that's really not debatable. Are you a professional shooter who devotes x number of hours, several days out of every week - with a skilled coach committed to your improvement? If not, you're not as good as you could be. You may be "good enough," but the fact is that if you change NOTHING except make a commitment to one CC gun (as opposed to having a rotation) - you will get better with it than you are now.

Does that mean you should do it? Personal call. Some people carry just for the fun of it - they have a carry rotation.

When someone says "rotation" to me they mean they have several guns of about the same size that they rotate carrying with similar clothes in similar conditions. In other words clothes or activities are not a determination.

Same here. I wouldn't say a guy who rotates between a government 1911 and a SIG P238 (same MoA, different sizes) based on Winter versus Summer temperatures has a rotation. When I say rotation, I'm referring to a guy who chooses between a SIG P226 one day, a government 1911 the next day, and a Glock 21 on weekends.

 

[Bobson]

Your brain does weird things when it’s full of adrenalin; it likes to do the familiar. [Probably,] people have died trying to squeeze the trigger on a 1911 because they were used to GLOCKs and forgot to take the safety off...

Please post any scientific data to support your statement. Otherwise it is just a Internet myth.

The lack of your training and experience does not mean it holds true for other people.

I've got some "scientific data" on the matter you may be interested in. The other day, I was on a laptop getting some work done. I was using my wife's laptop (a Chromebook without a num pad) instead of my own laptop (an HP EliteBook with a num pad). I was crunching some numbers and got flustered, and even though I've used her Chromebook before (and I know it doesn't have a num pad), I started trying to use the num pad, because in my frustration, I forgot that I wasn't using my own laptop - which is the computer I use 99.9% of the time.

So there you go. Scientific evidence that stress can cause people to default to what they're used to.

Nothing like that has ever happened to you? Ever?

Alright.

 

[KeithC.22]

I am a shift worker and I do my workouts in the middle of the night, sometimes getting up to several miles from my home. When I am surprised by a charging dog it always amazes me how slow I am to respond. There is a gasp and my body goes rigid like it's waiting for some big impact...then a pause as I think how do I move my hands now and what do I do next....this has been a real eye opener for me. It is really hard to get in and out of pockets once the adrenalin starts flowing. (Although for dogs my first response is pepper spray).

So for me, it's the same gun, same position, every day. When I am startled I need every possible advantage. I have to train a lot to work through my startle response, which includes freezing. I have overcome it in other areas so I assume it's possible with this one as well.

It always amuses me when I am watching a police pursuit on the news and the suspect is using his turn signals as he tries to flee. I see that pattern over and over.

Training and habits are a big deal.

 

[camsdaddy]

I've wondered is it better to carry the gun you can always carry in the same place every time or is it better to carry the largest you can at the time?

Considering you are proficient with each. For example if I can carry my j frame everyday in my pocket is it better to focus on it than my glock 19 that I can carry most days aiwb?

 

[Bobson]

I've wondered is it better to carry the gun you can always carry in the same place every time or is it better to carry the largest you can at the time?

Considering you are proficient with each. For example if I can carry my j frame everyday in my pocket is it better to focus on it than my glock 19 that I can carry most days aiwb?

It's really just a matter of preference. If you think the benefit of using one system outweighs the benefit of carrying the biggest gun you can on a given day, then just commit to the J-Frame as an EDC.

There are those who think it's better to stick with one thing they can always carry, and there are others who switch back and forth on a whim. Neither is "wrong." And truth be told, even if an "expert" decided that switching back and forth is "ill advised," most of the people who do it wouldn't stop.

There's an enormous amount of evidence that cholesterol (only available through the consumption of animal products) is very strongly linked to the development of Alzheimer's disease, not to mention several other diseases and medical conditions. You gonna commit to being a vegan? Probably not. Me neither. The evidence really is there, though.

Ultimately, nobody really cares. Do what works for you. If you really want to be the best you can be, then read Post #39. I was partially stirring the pot for the fun of it, but it's all totally true.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by wally: I'm afraid if it comes down to "fast draw" your situational awareness has failed badly and you are likely doomed.

I do not agree that the surprise emergence of an unforeseeable threat indicates a failure of situational awareness.

Not do I agree that one who is able to move, draw, present, and fire quickly and effectively is necessarily "doomed".

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Trunk Monkey: How many real world gun fights have you been in? How did they occur? How much thought (if any) did you have to give to which gun you were carrying?

That post was in response to a comment about training and experience. And it is way, way off base.

First, the number of people who have been in "real world gunfights" is extremely small. Second, for that reason, what the participants have learned about all of the potential variables contributing to the outcome is necessarily far to little to tell us much of anything.

If we were to rely on that experience base alone, we would all be in a world of hurt.

Rather, we rely upon training designed by experts who have relied upon such methods as simulation and role-playing. That, by the way, is precisely the way the skills needed for air combat, air-sea rescue, and many other things are developed and trained.

Did you make any false moves (Attempting to engage or disengage a safety that wasn’t there or forgetting to engage/disengage one that wasn’t).

It was after a defensive training course in which I did experience a problem with disengaging a safety that I made two decisions:

1. to ocarry a firearm that did not require a step that was not integral to the draw-and-fire process to disengage a safety; and
2. to sell a couple of pistols with dissimilar operations and have guns of the same design in the carry line-up.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by camsdaddy: I've wondered is it better to carry the gun you can always carry in the same place every time or is it better to carry the largest you can at the time?

Think about how what is commonly called muscle memory works, and consider the importance of being able to react very quickly if you are attacked.

That has led me to think the same way that KeithC put it in the post just before yours.

So for me, it's the same gun, same position, every day. When I am startled I need every possible advantage.

I think the subject is addressed in this excellent book, but my copy is being borrowed right now. Either way, I recommend the book.

If you ever have the opportunity to attend the Combat Focus Shooting course on the I.C. E. Personal Defense Network Tour, or the Dynamic Focus Shooting course (which is the same thing) at a Gander Mountain Academy, I think you will likely come to the same conclusion.

 

[huntsman]

There are those who think it's better to stick with one thing they can always carry, and there are others who switch back and forth on a whim. Neither is "wrong." And truth be told, even if an "expert" decided that switching back and forth is "ill advised," most of the people who do it wouldn't stop.

changing guns for a tactical reason is one thing but how many changes are because gun guys want to own several guns and carrying them somehow justifies the purchase?

 

[Jim K]

Hi, BSA1

OK, can you post scientific data to prove that carrying a "gun of the day" is good and will NEVER present any problems if you have to use a gun in a high stress situation?

FWIW, I think I was the originator of that quote about dying with a 1911 thinking it was a Glock. I didn't say there were any actual cases, only that I didn't want to be one. I probably own more handguns than the average person, and I have fired most of them. But when I carried a gun regularly, it was either a Model 19 or a Model 36, not identical, but same operation.

As for practice and training, the idea of doing everything "on automatic" may not be a good one. I once read about a police department that reloaded range brass (this was in the revolver days) and required every shooter to eject his/her brass into the off hand and deposit it in a can. An officer was shot and killed; he was found with his empty revolver in his right hand and six empty cases in his left. He died looking for that brass can, like he had been trained to do.

Jim

 

[HRnightmare]

I do not typically. I almost always carry the same one, a Kahr CM9. Prior to that I had a Sig P238. It was reliable and worked but I wanted to "upgrade to a 9mm". Before the P238 I had a Kel Tec P3AT. It was reliable but snapped hard and was NOT fun to shoot that is why I got rid of it. I also completely ruined the bluing with my body sweat. I do get into different concealed guns for various reasons but were talking 4 in about 15 years. Mostly upgrading caliber or due to size. One was because it was absolute garbage and unreliable. I loved the Sig P238 it was reliable and easy to shoot BUT I disliked the external safety.

The only "rotating" I do is when it gets cold I sometimes carry OWB and my 1911 or Glock 19 just because I can hide it.

I did keep my sig P238 even though I have the Kahr because one day I fired my car and was getting light strikes with it. Even though I was WELL within the lifespan of the firing pin spring I needed to re-order one and wait on it. I was uncorfortable NOT having a concealed gun and having one that I could not trust 100%. I bought the 9mm later on and decided the Sig would be kept in case my primary goes down or needs repairs. Also it is my only .380 and I have like 750 rds of 380 ammo.

I have not needed to switch back to the P238 yet but my buddy who is a police officer had his concealed carry and back up go down, a PF9 and needed to turn it into Kel Tec for a few days for diagnostics and repairs. rather than have him out there without a back up I lent him the P238. Also my theory was that my father has a Glock 17 I bought him for HD and is his ONLY firearm. I keep it around in case we need to evacuate or go somewhere quickly. A 17 is NOT a gun to try and conceal in jeans or shorts and a T shirt.

 

[HRnightmare]

I have made a few switches as mentioned above. I have also made a few upgrades and changes to holsters but position, carry method, location of the holster / gun and limitations and abilities of the way I carry have remained identical or as identical as possible.
Going from a horsehide hybrid holster to the neoprene backed hybrid changes appearance and feel but NOTHING else.