I don't quite understand using a rifle for home defense

[Bartholomew Roberts]

True. But firing from retention-ish positions drops that length - which you can do when rounding corners, going through doorways.

I'd suggest not clearing your house at all if you can avoid it. I've done the house clearing thing with Simunitions and it gets dicey quick at even odds. Throw in an extra attacker and you start to lose a lot if you try to clear a structure by yourself.

Probably better to call 911, choose a position and defend it if you can, though I realize that those with children may not have that luxury.

 

[mod700]

Why wouldn't they? They manufacture around 100,000 AR15s a year according to the ATF (noticeably more in 1999 and 2001). I don't know what average is; but there sure isn't any shortage of people with short .223 carbines last time I went to the range.

so would you say that most people have short carbines in 223 caliber in their house in case of HD situations or pistols?

 

[BOONER]

BR is 100% correct. Unless 100% needed to do so . like to secure children in another local.

 

[RancidSumo]

I really can't see a rifle for HD in my house. If I had a carbine or an AR15 then yeah, it would work. On the other hand I am not confident enough with my handgun (although I am working on it) to use it for HD unless I had to. I think the best option would be a shotgun, mainly because I am confident in my skills with a shotgun to shoulder and fire the weapon without taking the time to aim at any possible distance in my house

 

[arthurcw]

and most people just have hunting rifles and such anyway, i mean the average person wouldnt have a short 223 carbine at hand.

That's something that $600 and a desire to tinker can fix.

I'm not a shotgun fan. But for HD it fills the role well provided you are very well trained, able to take the kick, and like loud noises.

I'd rather have a M4 style rifle if I could. Don't need as much training, doesn't kick at all... there is still the LOUD noise though. Oh well. 2 out of 3.

An 870 with a Knoxx specops stock it probably just under an M4-gery in my estimation. For 99% of all HD situations, the 6 rounds of #1 or #4 Buck from an 870 will do just fine. But for that 1% that have multiple invaders it's sure nice to have 30 rounds at the ready.

But alack and alas, I find a long gun a PITA to tote around all day, so my primary HD weapon is my handgun. If I can take off for the long guns; right now I grab an 870. If I lived in a single family dwelling instead of a duplex with a PAPER FREAKING THIN wall that runs the length of the living area; I'd be going for my .30 carbine or hopefully an AR someday. Time to tinker.

 

[Tony50ae]

To me it all boils down to what weapon you are most familiar with. To most military or ex military guys we know our way around the AR style weapon. To somebody who uses pistols alot they would be more comfortable with that instead. Same with shotguns. No matter what weapon you use in times of stress you will be able to use the weapon you are most comfortable with the best. To the original poster rifles can be very effective in HD for the reasons stated above.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

An 870 with a Knoxx specops stock it probably just under an M4-gery in my estimation.

You mean lengthwise? Not even close. An 18" in 870 with Knoxx stock collapsed is still about 5-6" longer than a 16" AR15 fully collapsed. I had a chance to compare that the other day and was a bit surprised how much longer the 870 was, even with the short stock and barrel.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

so would you say that most people have short carbines in 223 caliber in their house in case of HD situations or pistols?

It would be a bold assumption (and a meaningless one) for me to predict what some 65-80 million gun owners have on hand for home defense. My point was just that your average gun owner is probably more likely to have a short, intermediate caliber semi-automatic rifle than it seemed you were suggesting. For example: http://www.armedamerica.org/index.html seems to show about half of the pictures in the gallery possessing such a rifle.

 

[coyote_jr]

So, can you please enlighten me as to why the rifle is a great option for home defense??

Shooter,

You enlightened yet?

 

[arthurcw]

You mean lengthwise?

Did I say lengthwise? No.

I'm merely addressing that, IMO, the 870 with a SpecOps is just UNDER the M4-geries in the hierarchy of go to guns in most HD situations. Length was not the defining factor for me in that part of the comparison. It's number of rounds. The M4 has more so it's going to be better in those rare (but increasing) occasions when round count counts.

The SpecOps is not to reduce the length, it's to reduce the kick. Nothing else. The fact that is does reduce the length for someone like me who needs a short LOP is only a modest bonus.

Add back in the ease of use and the M4 types pull out farther ahead. As a mechanical device irrespective of the shooter, again IMO, the M4 tops an HD shot gun in round count and ease of use. However, unless you draw the lucky number for the forced entry of multiple cracked out suspects, the HD shotgun will serve you well IFF (if and only if) you do your part too.

Did that answer the question?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Did I say lengthwise? No.

Did you say in the hierarchy of go to guns in most HD situations? No.

My apologies for not being able to read your mind when you didn't specify what you meant in a thread full of comparisons over length and handiness.

As far as the purpose of the SpecOps stock, you may wish to inform Knoxx of the purpose of their product. They seem to be quite proud of the 4" adjustment as they lead their press release with "From the longest arm of the law to the shortest, the Knoxx SpecOps Stock is instantly adjustable to fit any shooter." instead of "Just when you thought recoil reduction had reached maximum potential, Knoxx Industries has produced yet another patented recoil-reducing stock to revolutionize the way you think about shotguns." which is relegated to the second paragraph. They also have that pesky Knoxx SpecOps NRS of which the only bonus, however modest, is that it has an adjustable length of pull.

 

[arthurcw]

My apologies for not being able to read your mind

Not my mind. Just the English language and Paragraph context.

 

[larry_minn]

Actually the orig post did talk about handguns, shotguns, and rifles. And I feel he did want to compare handguns to rifles (not just shotgun/rifle)

Anyway. Almost everyone agrees with basic facts. Its the little stuff that is causing problems. (and some thinking how things are without having taken training with certain weapons/situations)
Note... TAKE a "tactacle Carbine course" It will likely be the most fun/exhaustion you have had with your cloths on. Plus it (should) make you rethink things. A very enjoyable,educational two days. Beat the heck out of weeks of training/practice.
One person posted.
My problem is when people dismiss handguns like they are airsoft guns. They are very powerful weapons. They do a ton of damage to the human body. But when you say they "suck," you do people who are reading this and maybe take to heart what you say ... a disservice. You give off the impression that a handgun's energy is trivial and that is not true.

Its a matter of perspective... I don't think I recall ANYONE saying a handgun won't do any good. I think I read EVERYONE say a handgun (few even qualified it as 9mm and above) WOULD be able to stop a attacker.
Its just that every trainer/instructor,Officer I have ever met (that I can recall and I really think I would remember this) has said that a long arm is prefered in ANY situation where you have to shoot at two legged vermin.
There are many reasons not to use long arm. Such as "you are not familar with it, its too dang powerful (some super dangerous game gun) , Only a single shot and your pistol has 6-20rds. You live in dorm,
As far as long arms being too long to "clear house" reconsider this. (Sorry its a "do as I suggest not as I do" thing)
The ideal is when you think there might be intruder you should get family in your safe room and call police.

In my case its highly unlikely I will get long arm in action in time. They are unloaded with mags seperate. The pistols are loaded. (its much easier to answer door with pistol and not have anyone realize then long arm) :0
Enough of this thread. Nite.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Not my mind. Just the English language and Paragraph context

If only you'd flexed your knowledge of both and added the words "in effectiveness" at the end of that sentence for those poor saps like me who struggle with basic reading comprehension. We suffer enough trying to sort out most posts as it is. Thanks in advance for your consideration of those less fortunate.

 

[Eyesac]

Roll around on the ground with a rifle or pistol???

All I have to say is:

If I were a bad guy and tried to disarm an armed person in my home (by hiding behind a door or something and hoping to disarm them by suprise) I would hope they had a rifle. Way more leverage and way less manuverable. Rolling around on the ground fighting over a rifle is a lot less dangerous to me than rolling around fighting over a pistol...

 

[arthurcw]

Thanks in advance for your consideration of those less fortunate.

Oh I'll just calk it up to it being late and you being too tired. I'm sure you do just fine otherwise.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Do people even read threads before posting to them?

Just because a rifle does more damage doesn't mean that a handgun doesn't do a lot too. Is my Honda slow just because a race car is faster? I can't race with my Honda but it does just fine in the grand scheme of things, driving 60 on the highway.

LOL

I'm thinking you might want to go back over what Corriea said...Never once did he mention a bullet from a handgun wouldn't break a bone.

 

[TehK1w1]

I would have no problem using my Marlin levergun for home defense if it was chambered in .30-30, or if I lived out in the country. As it is, though, a .444 Marlin round penetrates WAY too much for HD in an urban setting

 

[Soybomb]

And what is the grand scheme of things? Should I say that rifles suck because they can't pierce the side of a tank? We are talking about damage done to a human body. How much damage has to be done to be an impressive amount of energy?

The human body is very fragile. How badly do you have to destroy it to be impressed?

Looking at the survivability rates comparing handgun wounds to long gun wounds should be a good start to letting you know how badly the body needs to be destroyed for a really effective stopping. If there wasn't a noticeable difference we'd be giving everyone in the military beretta storms to go with their handguns. Rifle rounds stop people better, it has nothing to do with tanks. No one is saying you should get shot by a pistol or that its a safe and fun weekend hobby, just that long guns are far more effective at stopping attackers.

Personally, why do I prefer a rifle over my 870?
one aimed shot over a pattern, it will defeat soft armor, 30 round mag with quick changes, lighter weight and easier to hold at the ready for a longer period of time, autloading

If I were a bad guy and tried to disarm an armed person in my home (by hiding behind a door or something and hoping to disarm them by suprise) I would hope they had a rifle.

Why are you roaming around your house playing peek-a-boo if you know someone is in it? Call 911 and point your rifle at the door.

 

[Evil Monkey]

What it sounds like is that everybody wants a gun that can be powerful yet compact and maybe even quiet. Assuming your state allows SBR and suppressors, here's some options you can clone at home.

MK18 CQB

MP5K suppressed

Mini Uzi

 

[commonman]

here are my reasons feel free to disagree

For home defense I thought about a 12GA pump, a SKS folder, or AK, or an old Mauser, and last resort a .357 revolver or even a glock. I live in an urban setting with houses ten feet on either side, a city with around a million people. I grew up shooting, but had to sell / give away everything while attending university, and didn't get back into it until recently.

Then I thought about this. I come home from work and find Bubba on my couch. We can't legally CWC here in my county, so I would be going from my car to my house armed with only myself and whatever non-firearms or knives (felony here) I have. I open the door and find Bubba there, watching my old Sony TV on basic cable, 13 channels, waiting for me to bring in the bacon. At least I know for a fact he isn't holding my own gun. That is because I have a steel safe lagged to the floor situated between three walls where nobody can swing a sledge to knock it loose (unless they demolish a wall or two), and has a key pad kind of like a ATM, and because I hate paying any more than about $13 per month for boob tube trash. So bubba had to either bring his own weapon and/or TV, or sit and wait.

I really wanted that SKS folder with the 30 round mags, of which I have shot thousands of happy rounds, and that 12GA pump, but couldn't find the safe that would hold it all securely for less than the cost of the weapon and magazines, or the space in my tiny house for such a safe to hold it and the rest. So I got a cheap used glock, six magazines, 1000 rounds, and a small safe to hold them, all for less than the price of just the SKS+safe setup. I set up the password to the safe so I can do it quick in the dark, and turn and open it with sweaty fingers - a feat I did not learn until I was very surprised I could not do when needed. Roughen up the knob on your safe so you can pull it when your fingers are sweaty! And people really do run away from your front door when you rack a load in your weapon on the other side of the door they are messing with at 2AM

My point is, I'd love to own a bunch more, but I really had to concede to how safe my weapons are when I'm not around to be there. I'd just hate to come home and find Bubba sitting on my couch with my own gun waiting for me to pay him my paycheck. So I don't make my weapon available unless he's a safe cracker. I realize a lot of people are not in my economic category and can afford large and/or multiple secure places to keep their arms when not home. And I do know a bunch of people who just leave handguns, rifles, shotguns hanging around unsecured in their homes ready for the intruder to discover and have never been confronted. I might be too concerned.

Which makes me wonder how people feel about leaving weapons behind doors, in closets, in the garage, etc. without being home to keep the burgler from discovering and using them on you or in another felony?

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

If I were a bad guy and tried to disarm an armed person in my home (by hiding behind a door or something and hoping to disarm them by suprise) I would hope they had a rifle.

So if a bad guy enters another bad guy's house its better for him to have a handgun?

What if a bad guy enters a good guy's house?



Oh, and evil monkey I think you missed the previous 4 pages where everyone was talking about how much better rifle rounds are than handgun rounds...Yes the UZI and MP5's are SBR, but they are til 9mm rds.

 

[bdjansen]

LOL

I'm thinking you might want to go back over what Corriea said...Never once did he mention a bullet from a handgun would break a bone.

What is funny to you? What is funny to me is YOU don't seem to be able to read any of my posts. I was not talking about the fact they could break bones, but how easy it is for them to break.

Here are Corriea's words since you seem to have trouble reading them too.

1. Bones - Handguns don't do well against bones. This probably isn't going to work. You can break bones, but that doesn't mean the badguy quits. If you look at x-rays of rifles against bones, they tend to frag the bones into secondary projectiles that also sever blood vessels. Handguns tend to break some bones, crack others, or glance off.

And skulls are hard. Ask anybody that works in an emergency room. It is pretty common to have people come in with bullets lodged in the fleshy part of the back of their neck, because they got shot in the face or skull, and had the bullet skip around under the flesh, but not penetrate the bone.

Looks like he is talking about bones and handguns.

Read the freaking PDFs people. Try to understand some science. Handguns (all sizes) provide more then enough power to destroy the strongest part of any body.

This is NOT about handguns vs rifles. Everyone knows rifles have far more power. I have said this in every single post!!!

 

[Evil Monkey]

Oh, and evil monkey I think you missed the previous 4 pages where everyone was talking about how much better rifle rounds are than handgun rounds...Yes the UZI and MP5's are SBR, but they are til 9mm rds.

No I read most of it. SMG SBR's like the one posted even in semi auto form maybe still effective in that you can put rounds into an enemy more accurately because of the stability in having a shoulder fired weapon. Yet, you still have a small weapon with low recoil and almost no muzzle blast or flash.

If pistol rounds aren't your thing then suppress a short barreled rifle.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

(Several Pages Later . . .)

Uh, er, I'll take rifles for $400, Alex.

Now.

Lemme see.

I have a 5.56 NATO rifle with an 18.5" barrel.

I have a .30 Carbine thing with an 18" barrel.

I have a .30-30 Carbine with . . . a 20" barrel.

I have a .357 Carbine with . . . 18.5" barrel.

Couple of 9mm carbines, but let's ignore them.

No shotgun.

Now, given the whole layout of the home and neighborhood, I'm thinkin' I'd just as soon not use the .30-30 unless it was all there was. There's kids and stuff around. And dogs.

The .357 carbine likewise. And cats.

The 5.56 and .30 carbine . . . well, lemme see.

The 5.56 certainly can do the job, but mine isn't as quick handling as the .30 Carbine thing.

With a varmint load (soft or hollow points), I'm thinking the .30 Carbine thing would be fine.

Quick handling, adequate punch, decent terminal ballistics with the right round. And I'm quicker and more accurate with it than with the 5.56 rifle.

Either one would do. I'm just better with the little M1 Carbine. Practice should overcome that.

Thing is, the only thing I've actually drilled with for HD scenarios is a pistol.

Guess I have some work to do.

Oh -- when you remove the backstop as a consideration (no kids, no neighbors, no dogs) then I lean toward the George Hill special CAR-30. Them's some fine terminal ballistics. And walls is pretty cheap to fix.