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angrybird
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In life threatening situations any possible object is allowed for self defense, including firearms, no matter which one.
I really need some general understanding of stopping power in self defense
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In that case, here's what I would do:
1) Retain the black-powder pistol as a reserve
2) Apply for a quality semi-auto shotgun
At our club here in London we have a French member who has licensed firearms in the UK and France. If you like, I can ask him if he will provide you some handy tips about how to proceed since he knows the regulations quite well and will know what can be sourced and with what difficulty.
1) Retain the black-powder pistol as a reserve
2) Apply for a quality semi-auto shotgun
At our club here in London we have a French member who has licensed firearms in the UK and France. If you like, I can ask him if he will provide you some handy tips about how to proceed since he knows the regulations quite well and will know what can be sourced and with what difficulty.
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angrybird
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Thank you very much for your suggestion, but that will not be necessary, I'm already member in firearms associations and contacted my local shooting club to get started soon.
Having owned and used excessively .36 and .44 revolvers, I'll say this......the .44 I had came with a 12" barrel and could topple ANYTHING I aimed at out to 50 yds, the .36 I loved as the sights were nicer but that's not fair in a caliber to caliber comparison, blasted a woodchuck all to pieces with a head shot at roughly 7 yds with the 6" barrel on the .36. Round balls are SOFT, so in a home defense scenario I would put as many through the breastplate area as possible and let the bone grenades do the work for you, it'll smash that ball out of shape decently too. If that's not possible (armor extreme situations) wrecking the hip/pelvic area will definitely get their attention. Hopefully you never have to actually use them in such a manner, but I agree that a double barrel with the .44 would make you quite formidable. I do wish you the best of luck.
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angrybird
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Bonjour ! Yes well let's hope I'll never have to use it.
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angrybird
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Yes min. 60 cm barrel and min. 80 cm total length. What do you think about underlever shotguns? Because with these I can have more shots.
danez71
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Such as these?
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/category/firearms/shotguns/lever-action.do
I don't know the durability of lever action shotguns and I'm sure it depends in the manufacturer.
Generally, in my opinion, lever actions can be about as quick as pump once you practice enough to not have the stock leave your shoulder.
Not quite as quick as 2 shots from a double barrel but you get more shots.
With a normal license, how many shots do you get with the under lever verses the 3 shot pump?
If its something like 5, and no one more knowledgeable than me has anything bad about the under lever shotgun design in general, I might might lean toward the lever action.
I say "might" because I don't know your exact situation. Finances, house size (50 sq meters vs 500 sq meters), selection / availability of guns there, overall size of the gun, what you're most comfortable with etc etc all play a part in making these decisions.
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angrybird
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Yes these types of shotguns would get me more shots, as much as the gun holds. The French police wanted smooth barreled pump guns with more than 2+1 shots in a higher category (= more difficult to get, see my post #10) because it is seen as a "gangster gun". But a rifled one with which I could shoot 8 slugs or which would spread birdshot dangerously large is ok. Go figure
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BrocLuno
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By under-lever, do you mean what we call lever action (as in cowboy rifles in the movies)?
I worry about your black powder pistol laying around for months with corrosion and chemical reactions ... Do you really have to use black powder? Or, can you use modern black powder substitutes?
This article explains some of the nuances: http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm
If I could have a rifled barrel lever action "shot-gun", I'd take that over any pistol any day. The impact is much greater and can develop shock enough to really slow things down. The boom will put the "other" on the defensive and maybe their compatriots ... Hearing the action working and knowing another is coming is not a pleasant thought... It's not the sound of pump wracking, but it ain't that far off.
A rifled barrel shot-gun with a Red Dot sight, with both eyes open so you have maximum situational awareness, is good thing. Getting hit with a shot-gun slug is not ... It is a very big impact.
If you want to test this, get some 4~5 liter jugs full of water and hit one with your 44. Then hit one with your shot-gun slug. You will see that there is a big difference.
What do the other people at your gun club have?
I'm in sympathy with you'all. You have been hit more than we have in the last year. I fully understand your desire to be able to take action if need be. Be safe.
I worry about your black powder pistol laying around for months with corrosion and chemical reactions ... Do you really have to use black powder? Or, can you use modern black powder substitutes?
This article explains some of the nuances: http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm
If I could have a rifled barrel lever action "shot-gun", I'd take that over any pistol any day. The impact is much greater and can develop shock enough to really slow things down. The boom will put the "other" on the defensive and maybe their compatriots ... Hearing the action working and knowing another is coming is not a pleasant thought... It's not the sound of pump wracking, but it ain't that far off.
A rifled barrel shot-gun with a Red Dot sight, with both eyes open so you have maximum situational awareness, is good thing. Getting hit with a shot-gun slug is not ... It is a very big impact.
If you want to test this, get some 4~5 liter jugs full of water and hit one with your 44. Then hit one with your shot-gun slug. You will see that there is a big difference.
What do the other people at your gun club have?
I'm in sympathy with you'all. You have been hit more than we have in the last year. I fully understand your desire to be able to take action if need be. Be safe.
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angrybird
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Yes I mean the lever action. With this mechanism I could more easily get a smooth barreled shotgun with more than 2+1 shots. About he black powder I seem to understand that it's very stable over time and only the residue is corrosive. Substitutes are not sold in France. The revolver would of course always point away from me in it's storage and never have the hammer on a cap. Thanks for your sympathy, I really don't know what Europe will look like in 10 years.
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angrybird
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And this compared to a "normal" lever action rifle that shoots bullets? Would you still go for a shotgun?
I would avoid pump and lever action shotguns for your purpose, because of variables that come into play in a high stress situation.
I came to that realisation on a shotgun course in South Africa. We had a Winchester 1300 and a Mossberg pump and spent three days in and around a shoot-house made of tires, firing from static positions, firing on the move, even firing out of a vehicle.
All of that training was scripted, and whilst the script was known we all performed very well with those two shotguns.
However there was an unscripted part of the course where the instructor fired live rounds in our vicinity from an unseen position and the adrenaline really kicked in! It caused me to have a short cycle with the pump.
All things considered, my recommendation for your home defense shotgun is going to be a reliable semi-auto with buckshot. You have the added advantage of being able to fire that gun with one hand, should the other one be engaged or disabled for some reason.
If the FN SLP was available I would suggest that as a good choice but it probably doesn't meet your minimum length laws (it certainly doesn't meet our requirements in the UK).
A Benelli M2 would be a good choice instead. Many of our guys at the club have them, and use them for practical shotgun competitions.
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Depends on the caliber. Any rifle caliber would be too much penetration. .357 magnum with hollow points would be good though. Otherwise, the shotgun.
BrocLuno
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OK, I'm a bit confused, but that's par for the course... Let get things straight.
1.) You can have black powder (BP) pistol. You have a 44 revolver.
2.) You can have smooth bore shot-gun. It can be double barrel, as in side by side (SxS), or over and under (O/U). It can be lever action. It can not be pump? It can be semi-auto?
3.) A shot-gun can be any bore size? So a 12 gauge would be OK, but it must be smooth bore? It can shoot slugs, buck-shot, bird-shot - but has to be smooth bore? Note: We have rifled slugs that shoot from smooth bore barrels. Would that be available there? Here is link to slug accuracy by type: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-46-shotgun-slugs-sabots-and-smooth-bore-barrels/
4.) This is where I get really confused ... You can have a rifle as long as it's lever action? As in center fire like 7x57 or something ... Or, maybe it must be a straight walled cartridge as some regulations require even here ...
If we can get this all sorted out, it would go a long ways in working up your personal collection. And at this point, I think most of us are thinking you will have more than one option... I don't think you need a 25 guns. That would likely make your home(s) a target for robbers, but a few might be OK ... Please help clarify?
1.) You can have black powder (BP) pistol. You have a 44 revolver.
2.) You can have smooth bore shot-gun. It can be double barrel, as in side by side (SxS), or over and under (O/U). It can be lever action. It can not be pump? It can be semi-auto?
3.) A shot-gun can be any bore size? So a 12 gauge would be OK, but it must be smooth bore? It can shoot slugs, buck-shot, bird-shot - but has to be smooth bore? Note: We have rifled slugs that shoot from smooth bore barrels. Would that be available there? Here is link to slug accuracy by type: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-46-shotgun-slugs-sabots-and-smooth-bore-barrels/
4.) This is where I get really confused ... You can have a rifle as long as it's lever action? As in center fire like 7x57 or something ... Or, maybe it must be a straight walled cartridge as some regulations require even here ...
If we can get this all sorted out, it would go a long ways in working up your personal collection. And at this point, I think most of us are thinking you will have more than one option... I don't think you need a 25 guns. That would likely make your home(s) a target for robbers, but a few might be OK ... Please help clarify?
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angrybird
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1. Yes
2. Smooth bore semi-auto and pump action shotguns are limited to 2+1, otherwise they need the much more complicated procedure explained in post #10. Single shot, double barreled and underlever smooth bore or any with a rifled barrel (incl. semi-auto and pump action) are easier to get.
3. Max. 20mm, for rifled vs smooth see 2.
4. European gun laws often don't make much sense. We have 4 categories:
- A (full auto, hidden firearms in objects, guns with lasers, pistols with more than 21 rounds, rifles with more than 31 rounds, RPGs, grenades, bombs,.. all illegal)
- B (semi-auto assault rifles max 31 shots, handguns max. 21 shots, tasers, smooth barreled semi-auto/pump guns with more than 3 shots)
- C (semi-autos with max. three shots, hunting rifles, rifled shotguns, smooth bore shotguns when single shot, double barreled or underlever)
- D (historical weapons before 1900, black powder, pellet guns <20j, pepper spray,...).
Basically anything that isn't full auto or other pure war weapon can be bought, but with different levels of bureaucracy to make it more complicated for you to get it. Category C is much easier to get than B (see post #10), category D you only have to be 18 years old.
I don't want 25 guns, just something to defend my loved ones in case of emergency. The black powder revolver was the only thing to get until I have my licence. And it's just a really beautiful piece of history.
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BrocLuno
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OK, I am trying to wrap my head around this. Sort of like California, but with more wrinkles in the rules and regulations... I went back and re-read Post 10. I don't pretend to understand what your law makers are thinking, but OK ...
Group D: Historic weapons have to actual historical dates of manufacture? Or, can they be replica's?
Group C: Seems to be where your best bet is. So lever action rifled barrel shotgun can have more than 2+1. Other styles can not without a lot of hoops... To me that's a no-brainer. I would always want more then 2+1 and I don't want the +1 (live round in the chamber) just sitting around with family and such. So a rifled shotgun with lever action with 5 in the magazine would be my choice.
I'd prolly go .410 so I could share it with other members of the family and the recoil would not scare them off. But, if that is not in the cards, I'd go as big as you can handle. Sabot slugs through a rifled barrel will do ~10cm groups at 40~50m, and that should do it.
I would put a Leuplold VX-R Patrol scope on it (or a Euro equivalent). That is a 1.25~4 x 20 small variable with extended eye relief. It has a motion sensitive red dot in the center and a circle cross hair. You can turn off the red dot. But you can leave it in sleep mode for a long time and as soon as you grab it, it's awake and in the scope.
Leave it on 1.25 power and you can shoot both eyes open as it looks like 1:1 so it will not distract you. Both eyes open will give best situation awareness. But, if you need to reach out 50m, or more, you can dial it up to 4x and it will clearly show you targets at more than home defense distances. It has long'ish eye relief so that big recoil from a shot-gun will not smack your brow and it has a big exit pupil so you can get behind it easily.
The thing is, lever actions will cause you to most likely loose sight picture while you run the lever. So you need an optic that will allow you to work as you are regaining sight picture. The VX-R Patrol will do that, Both eyes open and on the target and when that red dot is also on target, pull the trigger. Even if your cheek weld is not perfect, as long as the red-dot is in the picture, you will hit.
Do you have places to practice? Getting this down so you are comfortable with the mechanics and motions is all about practice.
Group D: Historic weapons have to actual historical dates of manufacture? Or, can they be replica's?
Group C: Seems to be where your best bet is. So lever action rifled barrel shotgun can have more than 2+1. Other styles can not without a lot of hoops... To me that's a no-brainer. I would always want more then 2+1 and I don't want the +1 (live round in the chamber) just sitting around with family and such. So a rifled shotgun with lever action with 5 in the magazine would be my choice.
I'd prolly go .410 so I could share it with other members of the family and the recoil would not scare them off. But, if that is not in the cards, I'd go as big as you can handle. Sabot slugs through a rifled barrel will do ~10cm groups at 40~50m, and that should do it.
I would put a Leuplold VX-R Patrol scope on it (or a Euro equivalent). That is a 1.25~4 x 20 small variable with extended eye relief. It has a motion sensitive red dot in the center and a circle cross hair. You can turn off the red dot. But you can leave it in sleep mode for a long time and as soon as you grab it, it's awake and in the scope.
Leave it on 1.25 power and you can shoot both eyes open as it looks like 1:1 so it will not distract you. Both eyes open will give best situation awareness. But, if you need to reach out 50m, or more, you can dial it up to 4x and it will clearly show you targets at more than home defense distances. It has long'ish eye relief so that big recoil from a shot-gun will not smack your brow and it has a big exit pupil so you can get behind it easily.
The thing is, lever actions will cause you to most likely loose sight picture while you run the lever. So you need an optic that will allow you to work as you are regaining sight picture. The VX-R Patrol will do that, Both eyes open and on the target and when that red dot is also on target, pull the trigger. Even if your cheek weld is not perfect, as long as the red-dot is in the picture, you will hit.
Do you have places to practice? Getting this down so you are comfortable with the mechanics and motions is all about practice.
BullSlinger
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Welcome to the wonderful world of Black Powder. Your Colt revolver will serve you well for the purpose you have selected it for. I also believe the 44 is the better choice for self defense, especially as that is what you already have.
I shoot cap and ball revolvers on a regular basis and find the accuracy to be superior to modern hand held firearms. I own several Colt models, 58 New Model Army (Remington Pattern) and several Rugar Old Army. I like them all but find the Colt to point more naturally. May be an advantage for you in low light situations.
The round ball will work well for self defense and may will meet your needs.Conical bullets are available and of course you can cast your own if you so desire. Shot guns are a bit hard to manage in the confined spaces inside of a home. The revolver may be the better choice.
Smoke is always an issue with these weapons but the black powder substitutes often have less smoke depending on the brand. I have no idea what is available to you. Real black power ignites with even paper cap designed for children's toy pistols. Substituent black powder needs a hotter cap.
I have kept revolvers loaded for extended periods of time and have not had problems with them not firing. I once even loaded a revolver and it fired with out any problem after three years of being loaded. I don't recommend leaving them loaded for that long but mine still worked fine.
Good luck in your endeavors.
BullSlinger
I shoot cap and ball revolvers on a regular basis and find the accuracy to be superior to modern hand held firearms. I own several Colt models, 58 New Model Army (Remington Pattern) and several Rugar Old Army. I like them all but find the Colt to point more naturally. May be an advantage for you in low light situations.
The round ball will work well for self defense and may will meet your needs.Conical bullets are available and of course you can cast your own if you so desire. Shot guns are a bit hard to manage in the confined spaces inside of a home. The revolver may be the better choice.
Smoke is always an issue with these weapons but the black powder substitutes often have less smoke depending on the brand. I have no idea what is available to you. Real black power ignites with even paper cap designed for children's toy pistols. Substituent black powder needs a hotter cap.
I have kept revolvers loaded for extended periods of time and have not had problems with them not firing. I once even loaded a revolver and it fired with out any problem after three years of being loaded. I don't recommend leaving them loaded for that long but mine still worked fine.
Good luck in your endeavors.
BullSlinger
tactikel
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For over 150 years a .44/.45 cal lead ball @ 850 fps was considered a "man stopper". Your cap and ball .44 is adequate for home protection. A 12 ga shotgun with slugs is a magnitude more lethal.
Some thoughts on home protection:
A dog is invaluable to alert and deter. Have a quality alarm system. For self defense encounters under 7 meters consider a bladed weapon or an impact weapon. If legal, a tactical Tomahawk is a fearsome weapon for close quarters combat. A knife with at least a 6" blade (a Fairburn-Sykes style knife is about perfect) is a great backup. Even an American "baseball bat" is legal and a legitimate SD weapon.
For each level of protection be prepared to practice, practice, practice.
Some thoughts on home protection:
A dog is invaluable to alert and deter. Have a quality alarm system. For self defense encounters under 7 meters consider a bladed weapon or an impact weapon. If legal, a tactical Tomahawk is a fearsome weapon for close quarters combat. A knife with at least a 6" blade (a Fairburn-Sykes style knife is about perfect) is a great backup. Even an American "baseball bat" is legal and a legitimate SD weapon.
For each level of protection be prepared to practice, practice, practice.
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angrybird
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As I said, when the shotgun has the lever action mechanism it can has a smooth bore and more than 2+1 shots and still be in C. Yes I also don't like the idea of having one chambered all the time. Historical weapons can be replicas, except when they have normal cartridges, this makes them class C or B again. The only "real" revolver I could get without anything is an original Colt SAA built before 1900, but then to buy cartridges I need a licence again.
No black powder substitute is sold in France, so I'll have to go with this. Thanks.
I totally agree! I still have some easily reachable impact weapons around in case.
I couldn't reload them in a self defense situation so I preferred the revolver to have six shots.
You see what we have to go through only to protect our loved ones!
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I think, instead of replacing the revolver, the bp shotgun would be "in addition to" so as to be able to add to your arsenal firepower, quickly, and with less hoops until you could get the repeater weapon. A lever action rifle in .357 magnum would make for a beautiful stopping gun, they hold more capacity in general if needed as well. As far as the rifled shotgun vs smooth bore, I don't know what the longest shot you would have to take would be in your home, but at less than 11 meters, buckshot will still get where it needs to go, I believe you mentioned you belong to a shooting club? Maybe a member has a rifled barrel you could test at distances you expect to use? A lever action shotgun with low recoil buckshot defense loads would also be quite the package.
Jackal
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Black powder pushing a fat lead ball is no less lethal than it used to be. Dont forget, black powder guns were in service far longer than our cartridge guns have.
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