I finally got it!!! Antique family heirloom

[DeepSouth]

Well for years now I've known about a old family gun that I hoped to have one day, well that day was today! My great great grandfather, who I was named after, bought it (presumably new) when he was 16 in 1892. Well for the rest of his life he used it for hunting.
I'm not really sure if he left it to my great grandfather, or my grandfather. Either way my grandfather wound up with it long ago. There's no telling the number of squirrel and dove he killed with it.
My father killed his first deer with it right up the road from here in the late 60's with 00 buck. So to sum it up, it's a fifth generation gun that's been in handed down for 123 years !!

Now that you have some of the history, how about the gun!

It a "working mans" rabbit ear double barrel Hanover Arms 12ga. I assume it was made in the 1891-2 neighborhood. It's not in great shape but it's not terrible. It was made in Belgium, and it has "laminated" barrels (remember my dad shooting 00 buck) which I can't seem to find out if they are smokeless rated, but I highly doubt it. I THNIK it has 2 1/2" chambers but a 2 3/4" shell will go in it, that's what my Dad and Grandfather shot in it. I do know when my dad was in trade school to be a machineist he made a firing pin for it, it also looks like one of the hammers was replaced at some point, one is mushroomed back from being shot so much. It also appears to me the barrels are "thinning" (if that's a word). I wish I knew more about the gun, but as best as I can tell the Hanover Arms guns are common and therefore cheap enough that there's not much information about them.

Now I'm faced with the decision of what to do with it, I am very, very tempted to I at have it put in a nice display so I can preserve it and show it off. But my decision to do that will end the history, my grandkids will simply be saying "yeah that's the old shotgun my grandfather loved and never shot, just looked at." It likely want mean much to them. BUT if I have it restored, and likely sleeved or something so it can be shootable it could last another few generations.

Either way i want be doing anything until I get some extra cash, so I've got plenty of time to enjoy it as is.

I know the guns value is fairly low, but it's priceless to me.
Also if anyone knows anything about proof markings, let me know, it's got lots of them that I wish I knew what they meant.

Anyway, here's some pics for your viewing pleasure.

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Notice the gap, I don't think that's normal!

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Barrel thickness compared to a dime, seems a little thin to me but I'm no expert. I'll mic it one day.

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Right or wrong, I blame all typos on auto correct.

 

[rcmodel]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

But the gun is well past being safe to shoot with anything.
the standing breech gap should not close on a sheet of paper.
But that one will close on a thin catalog!
And you could drive a herd of goats through it!

The locking lever should be centered or right of center when closed,
But it is so worn out it is almost hanging off the left side of the tang.

We won't even get in to the old Belgian Damascus twist barrels being unsafe.

Or the mis-matched hammers that show one didn't come with that gun.
(likely the right one as it sticks out too far to the side.)

What you need to do is somehow get the firing pins out.
Then throw them far away in the woods.

Then hang the gun on the wall and let the grandkids say 'yea, that's the old shotgun grandpa was smart enough to never try to shoot it and blow his eyeballs out!'

rc

 

[DeepSouth]

Yeah, that's not really new news but, honestly I'm real tempted to pop a few skeet with it anyway. I probably want, but I might. My dad told me it hasn't been shot much if any since he hunted with it useing nothing but 00.

Still the history of it is why I've wanted it for so long, and am so tickled to have it.

 

[notaglockfanboy]

^^^^^ What RC said. It would be nice to shoot it, but unsafe don't come close to the term that should be used. Cherish it and make it a conversation piece, but please for your safety and the safety of any bystanders don't shoot that shotgun.

 

[Jim Watson]

The thickness of the barrels at the muzzle is not what counts.
The place where the barrel strength and gas pressure curves cross is about 9" in front of the breech... right where your forward hand is holding on.
My neighbor, the gunsmith, had one on the wall with a chunk blown out of the left barrel there to discourage customers from trying out Grandpa's Gun.

 

[paintballdude902]

ive seen shotguns with much thinner barrels... but thats still the least of your worries.

the barrels arent even close to being on face, the hammers should probably be replaced and the locking lever should be centered.

i would be willing to bet you COULD get it to be safe to fire (as long as the laminated barrels are sound) but it would cost a few grand.

the locking lever might be as simple as being gunked up or some debris. but to put the barrels on face again you are talking about having a smith(a damn good one that is an actual gunsmith that knows doubles) add metal then file it smooth, then check it for fit. lather, rinse, repeat 4-5 times. then they would have to check the barrels to make sure they are structurally sound (NDI- nondistructive inspection)

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I'd give this beauty an honorable retirement! She's served her time well and has more than earned it!

Put her on display and let her live out the rest of her days telling people her story!

 

[Sav .250]

Once you mess with it in what ever fashion................ Your during a dis-service to that old soldier.

Let it rest in peace!

 

[stevekozak]

What a sweet old gun! I absolutely understand the deep desire to be able to shoot it, but it really isn't safe. I would honorably retire the old gal to the wall in a place of honor. Having grandpa around with eyes and limbs attached will mean more to the grand kids than shooting it will.

 

[19-3Ben]

Haha. Sounds like either the gun will be a great conversation piece, or your missing eye will be a conversation piece!
The good news is either way you'll have something to talk about!

 

[oneounceload]

Unsafe to shoot but a great wall hanger full of family history. Display it proudly with some old photos of your g.g. grandpa
@-3/4 will go into a 2-1/2" chamber because it is the fired length that is measured. That is in no condition for even light BP loads. Collector value is zero but in your family it should be considered priceless! I have some old books and photos going as far or futher, but noyhing as cool as that. Enjoy the memories.

 

[DeepSouth]

I have to agree that's it time for a retirement, but the deep desire to lose thousands of dollars so I could continue its legacy is undeniably present in me. But I know if I was to do that it would really be a different gun, and as a result destroy the current history. At least to me.

The first time I remember seeing the gun, my grandfather was talking about it and finally he went and got it out of his gun cabnit.... Remember this was HIS grandfather's gun before it was MY grandfather's gun.... He was like a kid in a candy store just showing it to me and telling me about it, he was so excited. Because of that memory alone I believe I would regret having it restored, it just wouldn't be the same gun.

 

[Onmilo]

Those old hammer guns wre THE cream de la Cream of duck hunting technology in these parts at the height of the great waterfowl killing era!

Many still fondly remember the MILLIONS of ducks that would come down these waterways from early fall to mid December.

As such, your old hammer gun is a prime candidate for hanging in any well appointed gun room and many rustic restaurants and will bring an easy $250 for the privilege.

From all appearances, that guns useful shooting life is long over and pushing the parameters could cost you a hand or even your life...

 

[Fred Fuller]

If you care as much about that shotgun as you say you do, not to mention your fingers and/or your eyes, DO NOT shoot it any more, or let anyone else shoot it either.

That shotgun passed beyond being safe to shoot AT ALL before I was born, and I'm an old phart now. As much daylight as there is between barrels and breech should tell you that as plain as day.

It should be rendered safe (firing pins removed and shortened, then replaced so as not to alter appearance) and given an honored spot in the household.

As it sits, it's a bomb with live ammo... period.

 

[urbaneruralite]

Thanks for sharing!

 

[bangswitch]

Definitely unsafe to fire, I wouldn't let someone I didn't like try it out. But it would make a great mantelpiece or over-the-door display. Cherish it as the heirloom it is and the firearm it used to be.

 

[WestKentucky]

If your dead set on firing it, do what I am considering...buy a set of conversion tubes and convert it over to a low pressure handgun round. You could then shoot it with something that will not name you. I would recommend something in the 32swl or 38spl pressure ranges.

 

[Tomcat47]

I was thinking along same lines to keep it shootable ^

Maybe Good machinist/Gunsmith could sleeve it to .45 LC/.410?

That is a nice old piece though... generations upon generations!

Other than that I would say a Great Mantle Piece and Make it non operational.

My Dad had a 10 Gauge he had to use when he was a boy for rabbit and squirrel hunting... it was worn out before he was born and it flew apart every time he shot it.

He would have to put barrel back on frame and put fore end back on and then he said go hit the squirrel most of the time.

Glad that one got lost in history somewhere. My Grandfather bought him a new 20 gauge from Sears, A J.C Higgins which I still have! He was so happy Squirrel hunting with it when the fear of pulling the trigger left...

 

[oneounceload]

If your dead set on firing it, do what I am considering...buy a set of conversion tubes and convert it over to a low pressure handgun round. You could then shoot it with something that will not name you. I would recommend something in the 32swl or 38spl pressure ranges.

STOP dispensing bad and dangerous advice. That gun is unshootable with anything in any manner. Pistol ammo can be higher pressure than shotgun and that set of barrels is completely off face! Even the doll's head is worn out. This gun was done decades ago

 

[DeepSouth]

Can I quote myself ??

honestly I'm real tempted to pop a few skeet with it anyway. I probably want, but I might.

Really folks, I fully understand that any competent gun smith would strongly advise not to shoot it. I would never consider telling someone shooting smokeless powder ammo in any shotgun that age is appropriate.

I'm just glad to have the gun, the temptation to shoot it is there but I know better. It'll probably wind up getting a custom display with some old family pictures or possibly other smaller heirlooms, maybe some period appropriate ammo. Who knows, but the more I think about it the less I want to have it restored, that just doesn't seem right and may not even be possible.

 

[twofifty]

deactivate it

Good decision.

But don't forget to take TomCat47's and Fred Fuller's advice,
that "It should be rendered safe (firing pins removed and shortened, then replaced so as not to alter appearance)"

If the gun is not deactivated and a curious 14 year old gets a hold of it within your lifetime, or an unknowledgeable descendant 3 generations down the road,
someone will be maimed or worse.

Like Fred said, right now it is a bomb.

btw, I really like the hand-cut line checkering and the stock's lines. That double is a fine heirloom indeed.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I'm with you, DeepSouth. Don't "restore" it.

Part of the nostalgia of such a family heirloom is its very appearance, which speaks volumes for its nearly 125 year history. If it were me, I wouldn't change a thing with respect to "restoring" it.

Shorten the firing pin, do as much research on the family history for this and write it all down for posterity.

 

[WestKentucky]

STOP dispensing bad and dangerous advice. That gun is unshootable with anything in any manner. Pistol ammo can be higher pressure than shotgun and that set of barrels is completely off face! Even the doll's head is worn out. This gun was done decades ago

Was not suggesting that he do that, was merely suggesting that if he is so compelled to fire it that he takes a risk, a risk of a low pressure round inside of a milled steel insert with 1/4 or more of a steel wall inside of those tubes would be better than just loading up a random shell for that "just to say you did" shot. The OP said he was inclined to shoot it, and this course of action though still not advisable is a far safer option.

 

[oneounceload]

With that gap at the breech, it doesn't matter what insert or not he is using, the pressure will blow back right at his face - if it just doesn't blow up in his face.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Cool heirloom to get with that history!

Having said that, I will echo what has been said: DO NOT attempt to fire that shotgun. Lots and lots of doubles came out of begium, and quality was all over the map. Even if the breech was tight and magnafluxing the tubes showed no flaws, it would still be risky, as the major problem area is corrosion that results from flux trapped between the barrels when the ribs are soldered/brazed on. For over a century, it has been attacking the metal-namely the seams of the laminated strips. Not to mention damage from corrosively primed ammo.

I love old doubles, and I even have one that I shoot with RST light loads. But it is an LC Smith 10ga in very good condition, and a did quite a bit of inspection before strapping it to a lead sled and firing dozens of rounds, with careful micrometer measurements at 16 points along the barrels after each and every shot. Even after that, I still wear safety glasses and keep my off hand tight under the forearm just in case. But the old Belgian 12 I have much like yours and in similar condition? No way.