I find it interesting that the 45-70 was designed for infantry because it is such a large cartridge

[DocRock]

Complete records exist for all the Buffalo rifles made about 5000 by three makers. Also you claim I said things that I did not. As I said, I go by accounts written in those days, not modern writers with revisionist ideas. The articles you linked largely support everything I actually said.

So. Nothing.

The buffalo weren't all gone by 1873 and weren't killed by "much more powerful" cartidges.

 

[d2wing]

So. Nothing.

The buffalo weren't all gone by 1873 and weren't killed by "much more powerful" cartidges.

I didn't say either of those things. I hope that your reading comprehension improves and you stop arguing with your delusions.

 

[DocRock]

I didn't say either of those things. I hope that your reading comprehension improves and you stop arguing with your delusions.

You did: "The Buffalo were mostly wiped out before the 45/70 became widely available."

False.

Again, the buffalo were not eradicated until more than 12 - 15 years after the 45-70 was widely used. You keep insisting that buffalo were only shot with what you term "buffalo guns". This is not true. In fact, the .50 Musket (50-70) did for a great deal of them.Time to back up your assertion with cold fact please.

Also, remain civil.

 

[d2wing]

ok The 45/70 was not produced in great numbers or in a commercial version until 1875. The 1873 Winchester was produced in much greater numbers and not in 45/70. Sharps, Ballard and Remington rifles sold as Buffalo guns were not sold in 45/70. There were commercial rifles produced in 45/70 and probably used as Buffalo guns in the late 1870's but but I have not seen any record of it in literature or production records. Hence not widely available. Only in the speculation of modern writers. Also books I have read written by people in those days said that buffalo had become scarce by 1877. Repeaters that shot the 45/70 weren't available until the 1880's. But if you think your 45/70 was the premier Buffalo gun that's fine with me. I don't care and you are a liar. I am tired of you claiming things that are outright lies. If you can't be honest there is no point in discussing anything with you. I have little tolerance for liars.

 

[DocRock]

1. ok The 45/70 was not produced in great numbers or in a commercial version until 1875. The 1873 Winchester was produced in much greater numbers and not in 45/70. Sharps, Ballard and Remington rifles sold as Buffalo guns were not sold in 45/70. There were commercial rifles produced in 45/70 and probably used as Buffalo guns in the late 1870's but but I have not seen any record of it in literature or production records. Hence not widely available. Only in the speculation of modern writers. Also books I have read written by people in those days said that buffalo had become scarce by 1877. Repeaters that shot the 45/70 weren't available until the 1880's. But if you think your 45/70 was the premier Buffalo gun that's fine with me. I don't care and you are a liar. I am tired of you claiming things that are outright lies. If you can't be honest there is no point in discussing anything with you. I have little tolerance for liars.

I quoted you.

The problem started with your tone and hasn't improved. You supply nothing to support your very strident assertions, whereas your claims have been quite clearly refuted by facts from multiple sources. Your claim was that the buffalo were wiped out by the time the 45-70 came around. That's false. You claim the 45-70 was not used to hunt buffalo, at least in any numbers, but offer nothing to support the claim. And since you don't seem to know when the buffalo were in fact wiped out, your claims on other related matters require some form of substantiation. As the saying goes, "You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts".

Your response above is most unbecoming.

 

[d2wing]

I quoted you.

The problem started with your tone and hasn't improved. You supply nothing to support your very strident assertions, whereas your claims have been quite clearly refuted by facts from multiple sources. Your claim was that the buffalo were wiped out by the time the 45-70 came around. That's false. You claim the 45-70 was not used to hunt buffalo, at least in any numbers, but offer nothing to support the claim. And since you don't seem to know when the buffalo were in fact wiped out, your claims on other related matters require some form of substantiation. As the saying goes, "You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts".

Your response above is most unbecoming.

Again you lie, I did not say those things, You did not quote me because you claim falsely that that I said things I did not. Also production records and first hand accounts are available and I have read them. You clearly are nothing but a liar.

 

[tark]

d2wing, consider yourself lucky. At least he hasn't called you "buttercup."

 

[Zoer]

in summary of the past 5 pages ,,,,,,,,,,Custers last stand was a perfect storm of all the factors that led to his demise. Lots of questions about that battle just cant be answered now. I cant remember the book, i think it was "the buffalo hunters" but it said that the 45/70 was more popular with the northern buffalo hunters, so yes it was employed at the tail end of the buffalo hunts in the 1870's,,, t Roosevelt roamed the northern plains in the 1880's and he said the buffalo was very rare by that point in time Elmer Keith said that the original 45/70 load 405 @1,300 was effective on Grizzlies ,, i haven't been able to find much else about the popularity of the 45/70 with hunters at the 19th century the battle of the little bighorn and closing of the west is period of time that never loses my interest

 

[.455_Hunter]

I always thought the primary buffalo mass kill calibers were the .44/77, .50/70 and .50/90, but I definitely not a SME on that area.

 

[Mosin77]

Sharps chambered more of its rifles in .45-70 than in any other chambering. Only they called it the 45-70 Sharps and offered it in several different bullet weights. Trapdoors were also surprisingly plentiful in civilian hands, according to original accounts. Did these account for millions of Buffalo? Hard to say. But there’s no doubt that the cartridge is an effective one for Buffalo, and so considering its widespread use on the frontier, it likely accounted for its fair share.

Custer’s personal hunting rifle was a .50-70 Rolling Block. We know a lot of .50-70s were employed in the Buffalo hunting. The “big 50,” the Sharps 50-90, seems to have been the most revered of the cartridges, but production of these (and the more esoteric Sharps chamberings) just wasn’t that high.

Either way, whether the 45-70 killed 10,000,000 Buffalo or not.... in light of the thread’s subject, it certainly could, with zero issues. Anyone who dismisses it derogatorily as a “mere deer cartridge” must be talking about a different 45-70 with which I have no familiarity. But, just because it was effective for Buffalo doesn’t make it unsuited for infantry use, in the era of the cavalry charge. The preferred theoretical tactic was to use massed infantry volley fire at long range to smash enemy formations before they could close to pistol, repeating carbine, or melee range. This is why the single shot rifle always enjoyed pride of place over the Winchester or other repeater, even though they could be devastating at close range. Almost all militaries considered them entirely unsuitable for military service. It wasn’t until after WWII that the brass came to the conclusion that, actually, most fighting inevitably occurred at less than 300 yards, and so an intermediate or small bore cartridge was entirely adequate.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Just for fun...

Most popular calibers for Sharp's rifles made in 1876:

.44 2-1/4" (.44-75) @ 491 ea.
.50 1-3/4" (.50-70) @ 170 ea.
.44 2-5/8" (.44-90) @ 135 ea.
.40 2-5/8" (.40-90) @ 114 ea.
.45 2-7/8" (.45-90/100/110) @ 72 ea.
.50 2-1/2" (.50-90/100) @ 45 ea.

I have no dog in the fight, just find the topic interesting.

 

[d2wing]

It became clear to me that most of the books I have read about buffalo hunters are in the central plains meaning the Southern herd. That herd was wiped out by 1876, the same year that the 45/70 became popular outside the military. However commercial hunting as well as more sports hunting and native hunting was going on in large numbers concerning the Northern herd until 1881. Commercial hunting dropped off steeply after 1881 and that herd was wiped out by 1884 according to sources I read.
So the 45/70 could have used as a Buffalo gun and likely was on the Northern herd. This and earlier periods of the old West interest me a great deal. I just ordered two more books. I prefer books written first hand in those times, they give a genuine perspective and give you details that modern books don't.
I apologize to 45/70 fans if my earlier comment upset them. Part of my opinion was based on the results of the two Adobe Wells battles between Indians and Buffalo hunters in that researchers discovered that 4 cartridges were used, none were 45/70.

 

[Jim Watson]

As H&H shows, the .44s were Sharps' mainstay for a long time. I think that was what Jack Bean shot a hostile with at extreme long range.

Yet in or about 1880 they cataloged that they were making only .45s except on special order. Too bad they folded in 1881.
They offered a lot of different length .45s from .45-75 on the Government 2.1" case but with their typical paper patch bullet, through 2.4", 2.6", and 2 7/8" brass. Case length is definitive, there were different powder/bullet loads so the Winchester style designations are less informative. There is a lot of debate on the 3 1/4" case. I am in the school of thought that it was not a factory option but was only done as a rechamber and that not very often.

When the Brownings got around to making single shots with "the strong Sharps breechblock", the .40 was popular, usually the .40-70 Sharps Straight.

But Buffalo Bill's favorite Lucrezia Borgia was a "needle gun", a Trapdoor Springfield .50-70.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Yep.
The .45/70 was designed to kill men and horses, not buffalo.
An infantry round, not a buffalo hunting round.
Yep, yep, yep.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Yep.
The .45/70 was designed to kill men and horses, not buffalo.
An infantry round, not a buffalo hunting round.
Yep, yep, yep.

OK.

The .30-06 was also designed as a military round, not a sporting round, and excelled at both.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Yep again.
The .30-06 was another infantry round designed around the volley-fire doctrine: Kill the horses and massed infantry at the greatest range possible so that your massed infantry can survive the inevitable melee that will follow.
Even better, it didn't foul itself to uselessness in a dozen or so shots. That's why the 1903 Springfield could be loaded as a single-shot with the magazine held in reserve, with the expectation that those reserved rounds in the magazine would be useful come melee time.
It just happened that the rather over-powered .30-06 round was pretty good at killing things other than men and horses - and even worked pretty well in machine guns, too... .

 

[d2wing]

As H&H shows, the .44s were Sharps' mainstay for a long time. I think that was what Jack Bean shot a hostile with at extreme long range.

Yet in or about 1880 they cataloged that they were making only .45s except on special order. Too bad they folded in 1881.
They offered a lot of different length .45s from .45-75 on the Government 2.1" case but with their typical paper patch bullet, through 2.4", 2.6", and 2 7/8" brass. Case length is definitive, there were different powder/bullet loads so the Winchester style designations are less informative. There is a lot of debate on the 3 1/4" case. I am in the school of thought that it was not a factory option but was only done as a rechamber and that not very often.

When the Brownings got around to making single shots with "the strong Sharps breechblock", the .40 was popular, usually the .40-70 Sharps Straight.

But Buffalo Bill's favorite Lucrezia Borgia was a "needle gun", a Trapdoor Springfield .50-70.

Yup, I heard that smaller calibers with more powder were were more popular at the end to get more range as the last of the wild buffalo were pretty skittish. If I remember right a .44/110 was one. I also read that extra case length was an extra cost option as was barrel length and weight. Heavy barrels helped with recoil and heat. Before the 45/70 Sharps 44/77 was common and they came in a variety of lengths as did the 50's. Remingtons were limited in chamber length.

 

[Jim Watson]

Local dealer got in a Remington 44 x ?? Creedmoor, very fine rifle. Not likely a buffalo gun.
Real buffalo guns were heavy. Modern reproductions are limited by NRA weights if you want to compete.
But consider that Creedmoor rules of the 1870s had a 10 pound weight limit and a 3 lb minimum trigger pull.

 

[d2wing]

Local dealer got in a Remington 44 x ?? Creedmoor, very fine rifle. Not likely a buffalo gun.
Real buffalo guns were heavy. Modern reproductions are limited by NRA weights if you want to compete.
But consider that Creedmoor rules of the 1870s had a 10 pound weight limit and a 3 lb minimum trigger pull.

Remingtons often did not specify length. Just Caliber. Maybe it's a target rifle.

 

[Jim Watson]

Creedmoor model IS a target rifle. Maybe THE Long Range target rifle of the day.

 

[d2wing]

Nice

 

[792mauser]

The US Army handed out free ammunition 50/70 & 45/70 to anyone who'd shoot the Buffalo to help remove the "Indian problem".

They also got into the Buffalo removal act as much as possible. Just they had more pressing needs than mowing down Buffalo generally.