I find man's attempts to "modernize" the 1911 unattractive and mostly useless

[RetiredUSNChief]

John Browning's design is fairly simple. It need not be made helplessly complex just because one can.

With all that said, what opinions, pro or con, are lurking in the hearts of men (or women)?

Well, first of all I wouldn't describe what you posted about as "modernizations" or "innovations" to the 1911. Changing the finish, grips, or sights, for example, doesn't affect the functional design of the pistol any more than a paint job, window tint, or undercarriage lighting changes the functional design of your car.

Rather, I would call these things "customizations".

People customize guns for a variety of reasons. Maybe they like one finish better than another, maybe different grips feel better, maybe an extended safety is easier to actuate than the stock factory one. Some modifications are very practically functional, others not so much.

Whatever the reasons are is fine with me. There is no reason why someone cannot simply make their 1911 into a beautiful work of art, for example, if that's what they wish. For some, it's the bare, unassuming simplicity of a stock 1911 that does it for them.

 

[UncleEd]

The 1911 since WWII, as is the AR15, the Tinker Toy for
us gun children. It seems no end of things that can
be done to it and no shapes are beyond imagination.

Please, though, may I never see target thumb rest
stocks in pink on a 1911. Sparkly blue, OK. But
not pink.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I love my 1911s. The aesthetics for me are in the function. It is a tool. So how they look doesn't matter compared to how they work.

JMB's "vision" was HIGHLY modified by the military before going into production, so our 1911s are not JMB's vision for what the gun should be. They were subsequently modified several more times when the to correct several issues, hence the A1.

As for being obsolete, they are so obsolete that Glock came out with single stack versions to compete with the thin profile of the 1911, LOL.

Honestly, I had to laugh at the OP post where he found all the modernization to be ugly, except for a long list of ones that he liked.

That the design need not be made 'unnecessarily complex' really doesn't matter. The beauty of it is that people can customize it into what they not. Not everyone wants what comes off the shelf.

You got to wonder what JM Browning would think of this evolution of his design.

View attachment 975600

Personally I think he would like it. I would have been interesting to see what he would have designed if he had had access to CNC machining centers, injection molded parts, MIM and some of the polymers and super alloys we have access to now.

I don't know if he would like the particular design, but I think he would be intrigued by it and enjoy the fact that people have been able to build on his idea to suit their needs. I don't believe you will ever find anything recorded anywhere that he thought the 1911 was the be all to end all of guns. He was a tinkerer. I think he would like that people tinker with his design as well.

 

[mgmorden]

Meh - I'm sort of the opposite opinion. The 1911 is a mostly obsolete design and needs some updates to stay competitive in the modern market (note that obsolete doesn't mean non-functional or that it doesn't work well, just that it lacks certain modern features - a 1962 Corvette is an obsolete design but it still performs well and is very desirable).

I've got 1 1911 and 2 2011's (which you can sort of consider an updated 1911). All sport extended mag-releases, magazine wells, bomar style adjustable sights, upswept beavertails, and extended safeties - and I wouldn't have it any other way. To me the original mil-spec config isn't interesting aside from a historical curiosity. And honestly JM Browning was all about improving upon his designs. I'm sure if people lived for 200 years he'd still be tinkering with stuff and would have improved the 1911 in all sorts of ways - many of which others have already done in his absence.

 

[tarosean]

(note that obsolete doesn't mean non-functional or that it doesn't work well, just that it lacks certain modern features - a 1962 Corvette is an obsolete design but it still performs well and is very desirable).

Guess we need to define "modern".

You want a poly frame, WML, High Cap, Red Dots, etc. etc. etc.? You can buy them,
About the only thing that would not be considered "modern" is the link/locking lugs. The link was solved in Brownings next patent circa 1923. Course that went on to become Saive's BHP. Not real sure who the 1st handgun manufacture to do away with locking lugs and move to locking on the barrel hood surface was. I want to say it was M.A.B., but could be 100% incorrect.

AS for the OP you would likely have a heart attack if you saw my collection of 1911's. Dozens of them modified, bull barrels, lightning cuts, BHP cuts, Magwells, forward serrations, RMR's, monolithic. The list goes on.. With exception of those French fried borders @Jim Watson.

About the only one that comes close to original would be this.Then again, it has undercut trigger guard, serrations,extended grip safety.




Guess I will have to put "Dont like it dont buy it" in my signature.

 

[DocRock]

I like them all. The one below is my favorite. Issued to my father in early 1943, its predecessor apparently having gone to the bottom of the Pacific, along with the ship he was on at the time.

 

[bikerdoc]

Jeff Cooper said it: Sights you can see, a trigger you can control, and removal of sharp edges that make handling unpleasant.
My preferences are a fibre optic front sight, a 4 lb trigger pull, and a beavertail grip safety.

After that, you are into competition modifications and pure styling frou frou. I have been roundly criticized by gunsmiths and Expert Geniuses on my failure to express unconditional admiration for things like French fried borders and roughening of non-grasping surfaces.

People who think they are smarter than John Browning, Colt's Pt. F.A. Mfg. Co., and the US Army have turned out some things they call 1911s that cannot be counted on.

@Jim Watson said it better than I could.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Jeff Cooper said it: Sights you can see, a trigger you can control, and removal of sharp edges that make handling unpleasant.
My preferences are a fibre optic front sight, a 4 lb trigger pull, and a beavertail grip safety.

After that, you are into competition modifications and pure styling frou frou. I have been roundly criticized by gunsmiths and Expert Geniuses on my failure to express unconditional admiration for things like French fried borders and roughening of non-grasping surfaces.

I can, sort of. People who think they are smarter than John Browning, Colt's Pt. F.A. Mfg. Co., and the US Army have turned out some things they call 1911s that cannot be counted on.

Again, that is one of those funny posts about how the 1911 is great how it is, EXCEPT for the changes I deem appropriate. All others are idiots if they think there should be any other changes. HA! Jeff Cooper liked what Jeff Cooper liked which was relevant to Jeff Cooper.

As for outsmarting a dead man, the military was doing that from the start. As for outsmarting the military, again, they weren't fixed in their decisions but were willing to make changes. The military was willing to make all sorts of changes to 1911 when they upgraded them in the 2000s such as with the MEUSOC 1911 and many of those changes were seen first in the civilian market, LOL.

 

[JR24]

Guess we need to define "modern".

You want a poly frame, WML, High Cap, Red Dots, etc. etc. etc.? You can buy them,
About the only thing that would not be considered "modern" is the link/locking lugs. The link was solved in Brownings next patent circa 1923. Course that went on to become Saive's BHP. Not real sure who the 1st handgun manufacture to do away with locking lugs and move to locking on the barrel hood surface was. I want to say it was M.A.B., but could be 100% incorrect.

AS for the OP you would likely have a heart attack if you saw my collection of 1911's. Dozens of them modified, bull barrels, lightning cuts, BHP cuts, Magwells, forward serrations, RMR's, monolithic. The list goes on.. With exception of those French fried borders @Jim Watson.

About the only one that comes close to original would be this.Then again, it has undercut trigger guard, serrations,extended grip safety.

View attachment 975716


Guess I will have to put "Dont like it dont buy it" in my signature.

That's a real beauty! Perfect blend of classic look with all the features I prefer on a 1911

 

[Jim Watson]

Ah, I have been wondering about that trigger guard undercut.
It radiuses out from the front strap to the bottom of the trigger guard and just stops, leaving a hard corner. Can you feel that line when handling or shooting?

 

[SRSTAdam21]

GASP...9mm



Tacticool



They all serve a purpose. We live in a world of variety and continuous improvement. I appreciate old school and upgrades alike. Again, all a matter of taste. As long as they keep selling its good for all of us.

 

[Jim Watson]

As long as they work.
I have read entirely too much about "500 round break-in" and "good customer service."

 

[jmorris]

I feel the same way about the Ford model T but not all the time.

If I am feeling nostalgic, only thing that beats an old lever gun or single action is a 100 year old 1911, same goes for an old wood spoked T.

However, there can be significant gains in performance in changing designs and components to suit particular uses or set of parameters.

Want to get there faster than the original?



Want to beat an original 1911 and still fit in the same size box?



If you stop looking at them as art and just try and set a goal that defines “usefulness” it’s easier to see what makes them better. Art however, brings about emotion. I could figure out why people vote the way they do easier than figuring out why someone would pay millions for a Picasso...

 

[tarosean]

It radiuses out from the front strap to the bottom of the trigger guard and just stops, leaving a hard corner. Can you feel that line when handling or shooting?

Not at all. I like it so much I wish all my 1911's had it... That would be too expensive of an endeavor to undertake though.

 

[bdickens]

One thing you cannot say about a 1911 is that it is unreliable. Any one that needs 20 rounds to stop a threat needs to learn to shoot better.

Assuming there's only one of them and is willing to stand still for you....

 

[9x56MS]

No just assuming there are not 7 of them and they can’t outrun a bullet. If you can shoot that is.

 

[Archie]

What fun would a forum be it be if we all agreed? I am not a fan of the 1911, IMHO it is nearly as obsolete as the revolver. Being a gun-gamer I have seen many MANY variation on the original 1911 and most of them have been an improvement. IMHO the only thing on a 1911 that makes it special is the trigger, beyond that there are lots of areas to improve it depending on your purpose.

I own two 1911 based handguns, one is, my one and only safe queen. The other is fairly far from the original configuration and is my USPSA Limited gun.

Don't take me to serious I still carry a Model 10 more often than any other handgun I own.

You're a gamer. Okay. I have lived my life carrying a gun for a living. Feel free to play games. The Model 10 (presumably a S&W descendent of a Military and Police) is an excellent defense gun, and nowhere near being obsolete. Except for those who have convinced themselves firing many wild rounds is important. The only thing I would recommend about carrying a .38 Special revolver is the ammunition. Not the 158 'halt or I'll dent your paint' round and not some lightweight jacketed load that is worse.

 

[Archie]

My 1911's are series 70 and one is strictly mil-spec. That being said, I see no problem in the market delivering what the buyers want, and if that's "enhanced" 1911's what of it? Insofar as buyer's needs and wants are being supplied I don't see where that can be judged as "useless". Each has the freedom to make his own decision whether to be part of it or not.

I'm not suggesting any restriction on what is made or who buys what.

 

[Archie]

OP did not mention a FLGR (full length guide rod) - therefore, must be okay.

Beavertail grip safety is a non-negotiable for me.
Sights my 54 year old eyes can see are pretty useful too.

Edit to add pic of some of my 1911's

I've shot pistols with full guide rods and without. I don't really sense any difference. So, it is optional, not required.
Old eyes? I'm 71. Point taken. Beavertail grip safety. I've a permanent scar on the web of my right hand. I've been hammer bit for about 55 years now. Okay by me, until it gets so big it gets in the way of quick grip or holster.

 

[Coyote3855]

I have half a dozen or so 1911s including a 2011 used in IPSC Limited and a 1918 Colt Commercial model. Most recent acquisition was a Kimber stainless lightweight .45. I like them all in .45 and .38 Super. Could do without the front serrations on the Kimber but the price was right and it has performed flawlessly with everything from 230 grain ball to 200 LSWC.

 

[mgmorden]

Guess we need to define "modern".

You want a poly frame, WML, High Cap, Red Dots, etc. etc. etc.? You can buy them,

Indeed you can buy those features, but that falls under those "updates" that I mentioned . That's what I mean: the original GI configuration needs many of the changes that have been introduced to stay competitive.

 

[commygun]

Hear, hear! Hate the elf-slipper beavertails. And I’m not sure why, but I find skeletonized or Swiss cheese triggers and hammers so aesthetically objectionable that I will never buy a gun with either.

 

[CDW4ME]

I've shot pistols with full guide rods and without. I don't really sense any difference. So, it is optional, not required.
Old eyes? I'm 71. Point taken. Beavertail grip safety. I've a permanent scar on the web of my right hand. I've been hammer bit for about 55 years now. Okay by me, until it gets so big it gets in the way of quick grip or holster.

That might have been preventable, or lessened. Beavertail grip safetys have been a thing for 25+ years; I had Colt "Enhanced" models in the early-mid 1990's.

ETA pic of 1911's in best millimeter and a 9mm, all have the requite (approved) grip safety.

 

[Tallball]

I like the beavertail and the sights to be a bit larger than the "original".

There don't seem to be any other changes I need or want.

This is a cheap one that shoots just fine. I didn't want more bells and whistles.

RIA 1911 45acp

• Tallball
• Jun 26, 2019

 

[bdickens]

No just assuming there are not 7 of them and they can’t outrun a bullet. If you can shoot that is.

I don't know what fantasy land you're living in, but in the real world, a .45 isn't a magic death ray. People don't just fall over and give up the ghost just because a bullet hit them. Not even a .45.