I got pulled over today... your gonna want to read this.

[JohnBT]

Mistake 7: Complaining when you don't even get a ticket or a warning.


"all officers in those departments have been trained that OC is legal."

Is it still true that to open carry in a car there you have to have a concealed carry permit? I remember reading this a year or so ago.

John

 

[swing2hard]

I cant even imagine the stress level a cop has when walking up to a car he has pulled over. I have been pulled over & put my keys on the dash & put both of my hands out of the window so the officer can see them.

 

[jr45]

There was a guy from NC who was falsely arrested for a bunch of made up "crimes" in Fairfax County, VA because he notified when he didn't need to. If he hadn't announced without needing to, he wouldn't have been falsely arrested and the city and officers concerned wouldn't be getting sued for falsely arresting somebody for "having hollowpoints", "crossing state lines with a loaded firearm", and "carrying a concealed weapon (with a VALID out of state CHL)".

I remember that, really ridicules charges (Fairfax is about 20 miles from me). I can't remember the details of the suit but he did get a settlement with the help of VCDL. I have been stopped twice since moving to VA and never mentioned I was carrying nor was I asked. I did have a negative experience (drawn on) in MS while not armed.

 

[JohnBT]

Okay, found it.

http://opencarry.org/wa.html

"Open Car Carry - Firearms may be openly carried in cars only with a permit/license."

 

[wrs840]

My father is also friends with the assistant chief of police so I will go and speak with her tomorrow.

I recommend considering the possibility that there's a lesson to be learned from your experience. Sicing daddy on them will likely only make it worse. Hopefully your father would instinctively know this and take the opportunity to do a little constructive parenting about when being confrontational is not the best option.

Les

 

[expvideo]

Mistake 1: Buying an M3.
Mistake 2: Refusing to attach your front plate.

Agreed.

Mistake 3: Having a loaded pistol in plain view on the front seat.
Mistake 4: Not covering it with a map when pulled over.

Open carry is legal in WA, for one. And he was wearing the pistol in a holster, for two, not having it sit on the front seat.

Mistake 5: Not immediately identifying yourself as a permitted carrier with a loaded weapon in the vehicle.

That is not required in WA state, for one. And the officer didn't give him the opportunity to, for two. Instead the officer drew down on him when he wasn't acting violent. OCing is not to be responded to by arrest at gunpoint, regardless of where in WA you are, or whether or not you are operating a vehicle.

Mistake 6: Bringing your father into this.

Agreed, but persistance of this issue is important because that cop is dangerous and doesn't understand/care what the law says.

Instead of seeing this as a "Who was right/wrong" question, you should view it as an "Extreme Low Profile Fail." The idea is to avoid these experiences, no matter who is "right" or "wrong." The above mistakes caused the Fail.

Sounds like a tourist, to me. Ayuh.

The fail was on the officer's part, not the OP's. Mistake #2 was the only thing that was his fault. Everything else was the officer's fault.

Is it still true that to open carry in a car there you have to have a concealed carry permit? I remember reading this a year or so ago.

Yes, if the gun is loaded, but demanding the permit at gunpoint is not SOP. Neither is cuffing and detaining the person.

Mistake 7: Complaining when you don't even get a ticket or a warning.

He's complaining about the violation of his rights, being arrested at gunpoint and the officer trying to illegally search his car. He didn't complain about being pulled over, and based on his understanding that he could be ticketted for the lack of a front plate and willingness to run that risk, I don't think he would be complaining about being ticketted if he had been.

I recommend considering the possibility that there's a lesson to be learned from your experience.

The officer is the one that needs to learn the lesson. The OP didn't do anything wrong (accept for the license plate thing), and his rights were violated. Let's not scold him for OCing when OCing is legal. It was not his actions that caused the problem. It was the officer's actions. The officer is the problem, not the OP.

 

[Sam1911]

This is how it should have happened. .... I ask for you to remove your holster as I remove my sidearm and I tell you to place your holstered gun on the dash. If you comply without making the wrong move you do not get jacked up. Then I get your id and CCW liscense and run them. Your holstered weapon I put on top of your trunk until you check out.

Bullseye, do you routinely disarm licensed citizens you stop for traffic violations, or did I misunderstand you? If so, do you really prefer/instruct them to handle the firearm themselves? One reason I ask is that removing most of the holsters I carry in would involve having to remove my belt as well, which would be darned near impossible without getting out of the car. What would you have someone do then? Actually draw the weapon? I'd think that would be sub-optimal. Do you instead put that person on the hood of their car on the side of the public highway and disarm them yourself (uncomfortably similar to the treatment a criminal would receive)? Or do you allow them to exit the vehicle and disarm themselves, which puts you in a position of some risk as (again) you're having them handle their gun? One would think that if you get through the stop and the guy didn't try to shoot you, then you didn't need to disarm him anyway...

On the other hand, many of the rules of gun safety might get lost in such a high-stress and unfamiliar situation (for the citizen at least). You might end up with him sweeping you, you accidentally sweeping him, fingers on the trigger unintentionally and all kinds of accidental unpleasantness.

It just seems SO much (like INFINITELY) safer to stick to the "Thanks for letting me know. Please do not reach for or handle your firearm until I've let you go," model. Both of your guns can stay where they belong, no one is treated like a criminal, and the whole stop gets finished with much less stress for both parties.

Now here is what You should have done. As the officer approaches your window you tell him that you are a CCW and you are carrying. You tell him that your wallet containing your ID and CCW liscense are in your back pocket. You ask the officer how you want to proceed.

I agree with that advice, IF 1) you are carrying openly or in some fasion where the officer is likely to see/find the gun, and/or 2) if you state requires it.

In the vast majority of stops, the driver does not have to get out of the car. If your sidearm is concealed under a jacket and it isn't going to be exposed when you reach for your wallet or to get your registration, there's no good reason to put anyone's nerves on edge or put the officer in the position where they may make the kinds of mistakes that the one in the OP's story made. The gun ISN'T relavent to the traffic stop, so why introduce it into the mix? (Unless your state requires it, of course.)

Now if the officer asks you to step out of the vehicle for whatever reason, RIGHT NOW would be a good time to inform him/her. Him/her discovering the gun in the midst of the stop is going to be unpleasant for both of you.

-Sam

 

[Duke of Doubt]

expvideo: "being arrested at gunpoint"

He wasn't arrested. He was briefly detained at the scene, and secured. That's an important distinction for all sorts of reasons. I've been detained and even handcuffed once. No big deal. I would never say I was arrested, as legally I was not. When asked in official questionnaires whether I have ever been arrested, I may truthfully answer, "no."

 

[Duke of Doubt]

expvideo: "And he was wearing the pistol in a holster, for two, not having it sit on the front seat."

On re-reading his story, I believe you are correct. Open carrying on the body in a car isn't something that would have occurred to me, especially this time of year. Means no jacket, among other things. Also bloody uncomfortable in a tiny car like an M3.

 

[expvideo]

He wasn't arrested. He was briefly detained at the scene, and secured. That's an important distinction for all sorts of reasons. I've been detained and even handcuffed once. No big deal. I would never say I was arrested, as legally I was not. When asked in official questionnaires whether I have ever been arrested, I may truthfully answer, "no."

Pardon me. "Unlawfully detained against his will and handcuffed" is the more accurate terminology.

 

[leadcounsel]

+1 Ironfist.

Follow the law, pull over safely, put the officer at ease by turning off the car and holding your hands out the window, and tell the officer up front that you have a CPL and are carrying and ask for his instructions.

Given the facts the OP stated, if I were an officer making a stop and I saw a gun, I think it's reasonable to draw my weapon and put you in cuffs. I don't hear anything unreasonable in that encounter - and I'm sure there are a lot of things the OP left out. And, finally, the OP didn't even get a ticket for breaking the law, which was the cops discretion. If the cop were "hasseling" him then he would have been within the law to write him a ticket (which is probably $50).

I personally think that the front plate law is a waste of taxpayer money. And I know that there are a lot of trivial laws that should go away - but if I break one (like speeding) I don't get mad at the cop for issuing me a ticket. And I certainly cooperate with him!

I think the OP needs to stop acting above the law, put a plate on his $80,000 car, and cooperate with the police who are only doing their jobs.

 

[Mainsail]

Well, as much as I would like to tell you you’re right, I can’t. For the officer it’s all about “going home” at the end of his shift. Courts, even here in WA, will always allow for officer safety. You invited his stop by flagrantly ignoring the law, after that he has the authority to use whatever legal means at his disposal to ensure his safety. Your post reads very narcissistic and a little immature, and I’m not talking about your spelling and grammar. When I open carry I am very careful not to invite an encounter with the police; this means I don’t jaywalk, I don’t have a knife over the 3” legal limit, and I obey the law whether I think it’s a good law or not.

It sounds like he was trying to get you to allow a search of your car by using some clever word-play, and you did well to point out you were not giving consent for him to do so. Searching your wallet was a little iffy, as I don’t see any reason for it. You can fight it if you want but don’t be surprised if it doesn’t go the way you think it should.

 

[trickyrick]

not the same but kinda

az is an oc state. neither myself or wife have a ccw. i never travel w/o at least 2 weapons and usually more. when on the highway, they usually sit in the console, but when we enter a city's limits i move them up to dashboard. you get less looks from leos passing by and looking in if they are in plain sight up high instead of on the console where they might get partially covered by travel garbage, mc d bags and such. i have been pulled over many times for different reasons w/ guns on dash, some holstered some not, and have never had even a question asked about them. i just don't make any unexpected moves towards them. my wife was traveling about 2 hours behind me on a mountainous, curvy road. she had a flat and could not get the spare loose from under suv. she was on a curve and it was very unsafe. when she had gotten out, she had put her 38 in her back pocket. while trying to get tire loose her shirt had fallen over it. i, in the meantime had called dps to give her a hand. when he pulled up and asked for i.d. she told him she had a weapon in her back pocket where her i.d. was. he asked her to turn around and lifted her shirt and removed it. that was the first time she had realized it had accidentally gotten covered up. he explained the law and that she was breaking it. she explained the circumstances and he understood. he even got tire down, found it flat, drove 40 miles both ways to fill it, gave her water for her and the babies, and brought back juice on his return. he also gave her back the 38 for protection, w/ no ticket, when he left to fill tire. i have had numerous people tell me not to inform officers of weapon in car and to keep it under front seat or glove box,both illegal w/o ccw, cuz it's less likely to cause further problems. supposedly some were told this by leos and retired leos. mine will always stay up high and in sight. rick

 

[SHvar]

Somehow I think some of the original story may have been exagerrated to fit the purpose of the post, or changed.
In a state that requires a front license plate not having the plate is not only a violation, but it can be considered an attempt to elude identification or capture. Usually when someone removes license plates the driver has lots to hide, the police can expect drugs, guns, an extensive criminal record, an attitude, possibly a chase whether on foot or in the vehicle, possibly a stolen vehicle, and a thousand other possibilities.
My opinion, you got off easy without getting charges. Next time there will be 2-4 of them show up for your car being pulled over, and they will get out the book to get as many violations as they can find.
A good attitude, a calm demeanor, and being helpful goes a long way. Personally I have had my car looked over 3 times in my life when being pulled over, I have nothing to hide, they can look all they want. Usually they dont ask for a search unless they have reason to believe there is something there, or the check on your license, or plate comes up with flags such as stolen, criminal violations, blood in plain view, drug parafanalia, an obvious odor of drugs or alcohol, or you throwing something from the vehicle.
I would like to hear the cops side of the story before making an opinion.

 

[expvideo]

Given the facts the OP stated, if I were an officer making a stop and I saw a gun, I think it's reasonable to draw my weapon and put you in cuffs. I don't hear anything unreasonable in that encounter

Regardless of whether you think that is reasonable, it is illegal. He didn't do anything to warrant being cuffed or have a gun pointed at him. A fear of armed citizens on the officer's part is not a crime on the OP's part. Having him step out of the car, requesting him to surrender his weapon for officer safety during the stop, etc. may have been somewhat legal, but pointing a gun at him and handcuffing him for legally carrying a gun is excessive. Very excessive. Do you like having guns pointed at you?

 

[Claude Clay]

constructive parenting about when being confronted

that type of parenting either wasn't used in the past or did not take

or part of this may be the result of how the yuppie generation is now raising the entitlement generation.

when seat belts were a non issue i carried differently than when the police announced that they would now be stopping you for noncompliance. and as for front plates and different states; FL has no front plate and it will draw the attention of an officer if you back into a space.

a component of carry is to anticipate situations and think on methods to minimize conflict should 'it' occur.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

expvideo: "Regardless of whether you think that is reasonable, it is illegal. He didn't do anything to warrant being cuffed or have a gun pointed at him. A fear of armed citizens on the officer's part is not a crime on the OP's part."

People get detained and cuffed for all kinds of legitimate reasons, without having committed any crime. Transport is the most common. Temporary detention in the vehicle while the cop gets more information (without the perp mouthing off in his face) is another. Still another, by the way, is to avoid having a witness appear to be an informant to others watching. Shaking his hand and passing him some bills in public marks him for everyone as an informant, whether he actually is or not (it's a classic dirty trick you sometimes see on TV). Cuffing him and stuffing him lets him tell a tale later to his little buddies of harassment, arrest, etc.

 

[Deanimator]

I remember that, really ridicules charges (Fairfax is about 20 miles from me). I can't remember the details of the suit but he did get a settlement with the help of VCDL. I have been stopped twice since moving to VA and never mentioned I was carrying nor was I asked. I did have a negative experience (drawn on) in MS while not armed.

Do you have a link to the resolution of that case? I hadn't heard that it had been resolved at all.

If it were me, anything THAT over the top rules out the possibility of settlement. The cops in that case actually argued with the magistrate who embarassed them publicly by verifying the victim's CHL in front of them when they claimed THEY couldn't.

 

[trickyrick]

not the same but kinda

az is an oc state. neither myself or wife have a ccw. i never travel w/o at least 2 weapons and usually more. when on the highway, they usually sit in the console, but when we enter a city's limits i move them up to dashboard. you get less looks from leos passing by and looking in if they are in plain sight up high instead of on the console where they might get partially covered by travel garbage, mc d bags and such. i have been pulled over many times for different reasons w/ guns on dash, some holstered some not, and have never had even a question asked about them. i just don't make any unexpected moves towards them. my wife was traveling about 2 hours behind me on a mountainous, curvy road. she had a flat and could not get the spare loose from under suv. she was on a curve and it was very unsafe. when she had gotten out, she had put her 38 in her back pocket. while trying to get tire loose her shirt had fallen over it. i, in the meantime had called dps to give her a hand. when he pulled up and asked for i.d. she told him she had a weapon in her back pocket where her i.d. was. he asked her to turn around and lifted her shirt and removed it. that was the first time she had realized it had accidentally gotten covered up. he explained the law and that she was breaking it. she explained the circumstances and he understood. he even got tire down, found it flat, drove 40 miles both ways to fill it, gave her water for her and the babies, and brought back juice on his return. he also gave her back the 38 for protection, w/ no ticket, when he left to fill tire. i have had numerous people tell me not to inform officers of weapon in car and to keep it under front seat or glove box,both illegal w/o ccw, cuz it's less likely to cause further problems. supposedly some were told this by leos and retired leos. mine will always stay up high and in sight. rick

 

[leadcounsel]

Regardless of whether you think that is reasonable, it is illegal. He didn't do anything to warrant being cuffed or have a gun pointed at him. A fear of armed citizens on the officer's part is not a crime on the OP's part.

The OP stated that he was lawfully pulled over for breaking a law and then when the LEO approached, the OP reached for his wallet, carried on the same side as his firearm. The OP gave no indication to the cop who he was or what he was doing or that there was a loaded firearm in the car. LEO obviously saw what he was doing (in his mind, maybe reaching for the gun that he could see), and drew in self defense. Nothing unlawful about that. It wasn't the fact that the OP was armed, it was because the OP was reaching for something...

 

[hankdatank1362]

SCOTUS has said time and time again that an officer may secure you (cuffs) for his/her safety while you are being detained.

To the OP: Put on a front license plate, or expect more problems in the future. No one cares who you or your daddy knows. If you flagrantly violate the law, even one you don't agree with, you're gonna get busted on it.

The world doesn't care about how you feel about a law. Big boy rules, and common sense apply. If you're gonna OC (legally, well within your rights) and you get pulled, it's best to always inform the officer, and ask how they want to proceed. Even if you aren't legally required to do so.

But, if you take care of problems on the front end, they won't come back to bite you on the back end.

 

[expvideo]

The OP stated that he was lawfully pulled over for breaking a law and then when the LEO approached, the OP reached for his wallet, carried on the same side as his firearm. The OP gave no indication to the cop who he was or what he was doing or that there was a loaded firearm in the car. LEO obviously saw what he was doing (in his mind, maybe reaching for the gun that he could see), and drew in self defense. Nothing unlawful about that. It wasn't the fact that the OP was armed, it was because the OP was reaching for something...

I guess my mental picture of the incident is different from yours. The way you explain it, I can see how the officer would be concerned for his safety. I suppose that without being there, it is hard to tell if this was an officer breaking several rules, or the OP being more of a hassle than he needed to be. I think I'm going to bow out of this one before I start coming across as some militant cop-hater, which I'm not. I perceived the incident differently, and the way I was picturing it, the officer acted incorrectly.

To the OP: Put on a front license plate, or expect more problems in the future. No one cares who you or your daddy knows. If you flagrantly violate the law, even one you don't agree with, you're gonna get busted on it.

The world doesn't care about how you feel about a law. Big boy rules, and common sense apply. If you're gonna OC (legally, well within your rights) and you get pulled, it's best to always inform the officer, and ask how they want to proceed. Even if you aren't legally required to do so.

That is the best advice. Don't break the law and then whine about it.

 

[CoRoMo]

While I do think the LEO overreacted to the sight of a legally owned and carried firearm, all sympathy is stripped from me by several of the OPs comments.

 

[mljdeckard]

On THR, we follow the law. Period. Get your front plate.

Having said that, no, you shouldn't have been cuffed for exercising a right in a perfectly legal way. Cuffs are a restriction of freedom indicating the officer has cause to take you into custody. This needs to go up the chain. He tried to bully you with the search, and you did exactly what you were supposed to do. I'd call a lawyer and see what happens. I'm going to bet that this isn't the first time this cop has had a complaint.

 

[Deepskyy]

Now, while I agree that having the pistol on his hip instead of in the passenger seat/dashboard was a mistake, I think the OP can do without all the M3 hatred.
And it seems that if the SHTF bigtime, alot of people here are going to be on the short list of people who's rights are trampled in a hurry.

Cuffs and having a seat in the squad car was a bit much, not to mention the attempt at a 4th amendment violation. Thumbs up on the OP for putting the LEO in his place quickly.
You did get off with a warning, so I wouldn't push it. But take the time to search the web, find an off center front license holder that doesn't look as goofy, and fix the problem.