I got pulled over today... your gonna want to read this.

[Mainsail]

Pardon me. "Unlawfully detained against his will and handcuffed" is the more accurate terminology.

[and]
Regardless of whether you think that is reasonable, it is illegal. He didn't do anything to warrant being cuffed or have a gun pointed at him.

I don’t agree. In WA there is no such thing as “open carry in a vehicle”, that’s why we need to have a CPL to carry in our cars. Compare his situation with one where an officer stops a person on the street for some minor violation, say spitting on the sidewalk or having their dog off-leash. If the officer, while approaching the person to discuss the violation, notices a concealed weapon, he has the authority to detain that person to verify the CPL, right? He has the authority to ensure his safety by handcuffing and doing a Terry pat-down of the person. The officer’s actions were legal because the initial stop was legal. If the initial stop was illegal, the officer’s actions would likewise be illegal.

Since we don’t have an exact quote of what the officer said about searching the OP’s car, just the paraphrased version, we can’t really comment on that. They can use clever word-play to insinuate that a search is allowed when they’re really asking for permission. “I’m going to search your car, OK? Is there anything in there I should know about?” The “OK?” is the officer asking for permission, any affirmative answer, or no answer, is you giving permission. By segueing quickly into another question you never get to answer the first question. Tricky? Yes. Illegal? No.

 

[3pairs12]

I also get the feeling that some of the story is being left to benefit the OP. Did the leo over react maybe, but he had somebody pulled over that already knowingly broke the law. He doesn't know who you are and you go reaching for your wallet, that is right next to your gun, you probably will get drawn on every time. As said numberous times just put the damn plate on and none of this would have happened. My wife and both drive nice vehicles with front plates, guess what no problems to date except for a seat belt ticket in my sub division. The law is the law like or not.

 

[wrs840]

The way I see it, Whether it's LEOs or OSHA Inspectors or the nice lady from the EPA, we as tax payers cannot afford to staff every government job with infallible geniuses that will make perfect on-the-spot decisions every time. So, we have a strong self-interest in making a conscious effort to not do or say things that may inspire these public servants to somehow "mistake" us for a jerk. You can be "right" all day long and still make your life miserable if you insist on picking a fight with field-enforcement personnel over how "right" you are.

Les

 

[Kleanbore]

Regardless of whether you think that is reasonable, it is illegal. He didn't do anything to warrant being cuffed or have a gun pointed at him. A fear of armed citizens on the officer's part is not a crime on the OP's part. Having him step out of the car, requesting him to surrender his weapon for officer safety during the stop, etc. may have been somewhat legal, but pointing a gun at him and handcuffing him for legally carrying a gun is excessive. Very excessive.

No, you shouldn't have been cuffed for exercising a right in a perfectly legal way. Cuffs are a restriction of freedom indicating the officer has cause to take you into custody. This needs to go up the chain. He tried to bully you with the search, and you did exactly what you were supposed to do. I'd call a lawyer and see what happens. I'm going to bet that this isn't the first time this cop has had a complaint.

A few assumptions there...

We don't know all of the facts. Were the police on the lookout for a similar stolen BMW? Had a similar car been seen leaving the scene of a crime? Did the occupant match the description of someone who had just abandoned a different stolen car? I'm not talking about perfect matches; I'm talking about enough similarity to raise concerns.

The missing plate is a red flag and would most naturally raise suspicion regarding proper registration and ownership.

Until the officer can connect the driver with the registration (after looking at the driver's ID) there is risk that he is dealing with someone who may be dangerous, and until they have run the "wants and wanteds" the risk remains.

It is just amazing how many routine stops for traffic violations, expired plates, etc. result in the discovery that the car and/or plates are stolen and/or that the occupants are wanted. The radio conversation goes to cell or to an encrypted channel after the officer is advised to stay in his car for reasons of his own safety, more patrol cars are dispatched very rapidly, and the occupants--now suspects--are brought into the station in handcuffs. The more I see these things happen, the more appreciation I have for the officers on the beat.

I would not jump to the conclusion that the officer's actions resulted from a "fear of armed citizens", and I do not conclude that he acted improperly.

 

[daniel1113]

On THR, we follow the law. Period.

Period? End of story? Zero tolerance?

Yeah, that's an excellent policy. Sure, you may be removing all logic and rational thought from any situation that may come up, but at least you're following the law, right?

Give me a break, again.

 

[expvideo]

A few assumptions there...

I admitted my assuptions may have been incorrect on the last page. It seems that depending on your mental image of how this went down, the officer may have acted in a completely reasonable and legal manner. It is hard to tell based on only the OPs story. It's a tricky situation to say the least, but I may have over reacted based on the way I was picturing the story taking place. Without being there, it is hard to tell who was wrong, the OP or the officer.

Period? End of story? Zero tolerance?

Yeah, that's an excellent policy. Sure, you may be removing all logic and rational thought from any situation that may come up, but at least you're following the law, right?

That's right. The law is the law. Nobody has to go door to door proving the logic and rationality to everyone for it to still be the law. The law is the law is the law. Period. End of story.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Kleanbore: "It is just amazing how many routine stops for traffic violations, expired plates, etc. result in the discovery that the car and/or plates are stolen and/or that the occupants are wanted."

True, though at least around here most of those "wanted" situations are from a failure to appear in court for lack of actual notice, usually for a non-violent misdemeanor, or else from a failure to pay fines, for which around here a warrant automatically issues. An awful lot of people get arrested on warrants they know nothing about as a result of routine traffic stops, and a lot of money is earned by a couple guys I know from police tows.

 

[daniel1113]

That's right. The law is the law. Nobody has to go door to door proving the logic and rationality to everyone for it to still be the law. The law is the law is the law. Period. End of story.

I never said the law wasn't the law (what does that even mean?). The argument, which you seemed to miss (or chose to ignore), was the idea that all laws should be followed for no other reason than they exist. It's no different than one claiming that they are not responsible for his/her actions since they were simply following orders. It's logically, and morally, bankrupt.

 

[Master Blaster]

You know I have ben driving a car for 31 years, average about 10,000 miles per year.

I have driven in about 30 of the 50 states.

I have been pulled over 3 times, never in the last 22 years.

Some of you folks really must work at getting pulled over so much.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

"Good morning Officer I'd like to do everything in my power to maximize the time I spend here at the roadside, so let me just mention that I'm armed and get you all freaked out. "

Now that's funny!


Here's how I went through a traffic stop once. I was dead in the wrong, caught for speeding. I actually lost him in traffic, not running, but I could have made a couple turns and he wouldn't have known where I went. But, being on an island it was only a matter of time. So I pulled over and waited for him. As he aproached the car I had my license and CWP already out, and was thinking about the registration and insurance card in the glove box. I handed him the license and CWP and told him that the reg and ins card was in the glove box, but that there was a loaded pistol in there. I asked if it would be best if I stood at the front of the car while he retrieved the registration and insurance card. He agreed that that was a good suggestion. He never drew his weapon as I exited but did keep his distance in a 'ready' stance.

I don't blame him a bit. He ran wants and warrants, wrote me a citation, then we talked guns for 30 minutes. Just doing his job.

directly relating to the OP... and Seargent who'sy what's it... Sorry, the type of car driven does invite more attention from policia. But, I would advise putting the license plate on the front of that BEEM'R. I have had hot rod Camaros, Vintage Mustangs, a Corvette, and 4x4's.. Most often pulled over in the Mustangs. Several times, unjustifiably.

-Steve

 

[JohnBT]

"On THR, we follow the law. Period."

I think it's more like "We don't advocate or encourage breaking the law."

So that site was right, you can't legally open carry in the state of Washington unless you have a carry permit.

John

 

[jr45]

Some of you folks really must work at getting pulled over so much

The last two times I was stopped was for defective equipment (tail light then later for plate light).

Deanimator, I am trying to find the link to the Fairfax case but you could be right...it may not be settled yet. I could be confusing the Fairfax with the Norfolk settlement.

 

[twoclones]

I'm curious as to how you all feel the officer handled this.

The officer screwed up but it sounds like you did too. I've been pulled over for burned out lights and speeding in Eastern Washington and when asked about weapons I tell them I'm carrying. Over here on the Republican side of our state the cops are pretty 2nd amendment friendly.

You did good to not give permission to search your vehicle and to ask for an attorney but no front plate... you invited him to pull you over!

 

[kirkcdl]

I don't OC,because I have a CCW permit,and concealed means concealed.Also,in Oregon we are not required to inform.However,I have a good friend that is the training Sgt on the local PD.He and I both agree on the following:When stopped,due to the fact my weapon and wallet are in close proximity on my body,BEFORE I REACH FOR ANYTHING,I will tell the officer "I have a permit,and I am armed.How would you like me to proceed?"The one time I was stopped I was asked the location of my weapon.I replied "Right next to my wallet with my DL and permit in it".He replied "Please get your wallet out,SLOWLY".Did as he asked,(VERY,VERY SLOWLY),no problem,no ticket...He thanked me for putting him at ease right off...Although many will say that if I'm not required to inform I shouldn't,I will,simply because having the officer see it accidentally can make the whole thing go south in a hurry.Besides,if you were the officer,wouldn't you appreciate being told?In the majority of encounters with the public,officers are dealing with someone that is either hiding something,or not telling the whole story,so when you do not inform,what else COULD you be hiding?It's all about cooperation,on both sides...

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

And to the other posters, his lack of a front plate does not give the cop authority to treat him like a common criminal

You mean criminal as in one who commits a crime? Such as the crime of not following stated and previously known traffic laws? I'd say being a criminal gives the cop every right to treat you as such.

Did the cop over react a bit? Maybe. He sounds like a jumpy rookie. But IMO, when anyone comes on the board and says "I broke the law, I don't care, and I'll do it again", they lose all right to be indignant with what happens to them as a result.

 

[Mainsail]

So that site was right, you can't legally open carry in the state of Washington unless you have a carry permit.

Site? Huh? OC is legal in WA, no permit or license is required.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I think many posters are coming down a little hard on the OP. If you drive, you will get pulled over from time to time. The kind of car and nature of the petty violation are not especially relevant to this discussion.

The main lesson here is that in a traffic stop, regardless of whether you're in a duty-to-inform state or not, you should be sure to inform the LEO that you have a permit and are carrying if they are going to see a weapon in the ordinary course of the stop. If they are likely to see it before you have an opportunity to say anything, well, you better be a poster child for "non-threatening behavior."

Police response to open carry varies but many jurisdictions still have the mindset that armed people are always dangerous and should be treated as such. Change is coming but will take time.

 

[twoclones]

Site? Huh? OC is legal in WA, no permit or license is required.

According to
http://handgunlaw.us/states/washington.pdf

It is illegal to carry a loaded firearm in any vehicle without a valid Permit/License.

 

[expvideo]

I never said the law wasn't the law (what does that even mean?). The argument, which you seemed to miss (or chose to ignore), was the idea that all laws should be followed for no other reason than they exist. It's no different than one claiming that they are not responsible for his/her actions since they were simply following orders. It's logically, and morally, bankrupt.

There is nothing morally bankrupt or illogical about obeying the law. The fact that it is the law is reason enough to obey it. If you disagree with it, lobby to get it changed. Now it is OK to have a line in the sand, but over a license plate? Just get the damn plate. There is nothing illogical about that, and you aren't owed any explanation as to why you should do that. It's the law. That's all the explanation you need.

 

[expvideo]

Site? Huh? OC is legal in WA, no permit or license is required.

According to
http://handgunlaw.us/states/washington.pdf

It is illegal to carry a loaded firearm in any vehicle without a valid Permit/License.
__________________

Yes. We know that. But Mainsail was disagreeing this this comment:

So that site was right, you can't legally open carry in the state of Washington unless you have a carry permit.

Which does not specify that this is only the case in a vehicle, and suggests that it is required everywhere, which is not the case.

 

[expvideo]

...And since he had a permit and that wasn't questioned, this is off topic and doesn't matter for the sake of this encounter.

 

[DHJenkins]

Some people just get what they deserve.

 

[Mainsail]

How do the WA courts view this sort of thing?

Police may stop a citizen to investigate if the officer "has a reasonable suspicion, grounded in specific and articulable facts, that the person stopped has been or is about to be involved in a crime." Acrey, 148 Wn.2d at 747. We look at the totality of the circumstances known to the officer to decide whether the stop meets these criteria. State v. Glover, 116 Wn.2d 509, 514, 806 P.2d 760 (1991). The reasonableness of a stop is a matter of probability not a matter of certainty. State v. Mercer, 45 Wn. App. 769, 774, 727 P.2d 676 (1986). In other words, the police may stop a suspect and ask for identification and an explanation of his or her activities if they have a well-founded suspicion of criminal activity. State v. White, 97 Wn.2d 92, 105, 640 P.2d 1061 (1982).

Now, whether the lack of a front license plate constitutes a “criminal activity” or not may be debatable. I don’t have a legal definition of that term with which to argue.

 

[DHJenkins]

Aren't common traffic stops how they find a very large percentage of criminals?

Tail-light out, speeding, expired sticker, missing front plate - it's all the same.

 

[expvideo]

Aren't common traffic stops how they find a very large percentage of criminals?

Tail-light out, speeding, expired sticker, missing front plate - it's all the same.

Yes, that is correct, from what I have been told by police officers.