I had a non-intentional discharge today

[SSN Vet]

C'mon critics, there's truly only TWO kind of shooters.........those that've popped a cap when they didn't intend it and then there's those that WILL.

That's like saying "there's only two kinds of sailors, ones who have fallen overboard and ones who will"

The OP has the correct attitude towards his error (even if he did use a mitigating term like non-intentional discharge).

But the attitude portrayed in the above quote, which states that "unsafe acts are innevitable" is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

It belies that one has failed to take responsibility for their own past negligence/stupidity.

Sounds to much like the immature child whining "But Dad...everybody's doing it (or is going to do it some time) so it's not really my fault."

or they say "I didn't mean to do it"

to which I reply...."I know you didn't mean to do it, the problem is that you didn't mean to not do it"

Get the difference? My seven year old can grasp this, but I've met many "full sized" people (notice I didn't say grown up or mature) who don't.

If I believed that it was innevitable that I would one day have a ND and potentially injure/kill someone, I'd destroy (not sell, because that would only pass the "problem" on to someone else) my firearms today and become the biggest anti you've ever seen.

Grow up! Accept responsibility for your own screw ups and don't imply that you didn't do anything wrong, because it is innevitable.

edited to add......

even when I was an irresponsible little imp who would skip school and sneek out my dad's 12 ga. pump to go "blasting" or when I got busted shooting out street lamps with a BB gun, I've never in my life had a "unintentional discharge". Though I was irreverent, irresponsible and down right naughty, I always had a healthy "fear and respect" of firearms, and that is what makes all the differece.

 

[blackcash88]

I had a nocturnal emission once when I was young. Does that count? Well, it was an accidental discharge, right?

 

[rainbowbob]

If I believed that it was innevitable that I would one day have a ND and potentially injure/kill someone, I'd destroy (not sell, because that would only pass the "problem" on to someone else) my firearms today and become the biggest anti you've ever seen.

The "antis" in my life believe this very thing - that ND/ADs are inevitable - and use it as their primary argument against having guns around.

If it is true - they have a valid point. I don't believe it is true as long as I always treat every gun as loaded until I check - and then double-check - that it is not. I've had to argue loud and long to convince my wife of this.

We do ourselves a real disservice and play into the anti's hands if we cop the attitude that ND/ADs are an inevitable consequence of gun ownership.

 

[BorisDaBastid]

Most important thing is no one was hurt. My first and only ND involved a M240 B MG... Had the weapon in amber (rounds on tray, bolt forward) and covered with my wet-weather top, as it was raining. Went to pull back the charging handle, which was about the only thing that was wet on the weapon, and my hand slipped right before the bolt locked. I still have that top with the massive hole in the hood, and learned that wearing leather gloves sometimes doesn't give you the best grip, no matter what the SOP says.

 

[dogrunner]

C'mon SSN Vet.................if you haven't, it's more than likely that you WILL. Or you NEARLY have!...........Deny that and I'll call you less than honest!


You can get 'holier than thou' all you wish, but I don't care who you are or what you're training level might be............if you are truthful you'll admit to either an actual or near event.

Personally, even tho I've way, way over three decades as a LEO/CLEO, instructor, competitive shooter (Mil. and Civ.) I HAVE, and I admit to it.


The best you can do is to admit to it, point out your error and try to counsel those around you of what can quickly happen.

Holier than thou, just doesn't cut it!

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm pretty sure we all agree that unloaded guns aren't loaded...and can be safely handled differently than a loaded gun.

We can also disagree on the part about handling unloaded guns differently than ones that are loaded.

I don't care if it's unloaded. If you handle it carelessly in my presence, I won't be tactful...and if you point it at me, I won't be at all kind.

Handle all guns as though they're loaded...and even when determined to be unloaded...handle them as though they are. Period.

Refrain from the juvenile practice of referring to your gun as "My new toy" or "My little friend." It's not a toy and it's not your friend.
It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake the instant that you put your hand on it.

 

[bigjim]

I never did get over my ND. It ruined shooting for me. I used to shoot three or four times a week. After that I have been to the range maybe 5 times in two years. Its just not fun any more. I hope this does not happen to you.

Do a seach for my story here on THR. Mine was worse than yours. Maybe it will give you peace. It still bothers me to read the thread years later.

 

[blackcash88]

Do us a favor and post a link, bigjim. I looked at the first four pages of your posts and didn't see anything.

Oh, and get over it. Don't be a dumbass and stay scared at guns, which are INANIMATE objects. Do you also shy away from looking in mirrors because YOU might see the PERSON who caused that ND?

 

[torpid]

To ericyp: I am happy you are taking this seriously, and you seem to have learned from it. Always keep this refocused respect of the firearm in mind when handling guns, and you should do well.


Now, please indulge me a quick personal observation on this saying:

C'mon critics, there's truly only TWO kind of shooters.........those that've popped a cap when they didn't intend it and then there's those that WILL.

It's been said that there are two kinds of shooters. Those who have had a negligent/unintentional discharge...and those who will.

(sigh)

No, not every gun owner is guaranteed to have an ND.
Just as not every pilot is guaranteed to crash a plane, nor every captain will sink a vessel, nor every doctor will kill his patient through negligence.

I really do understand the maxim, and that it is meant as a cautionary one against NDs. However, it also is often used here (in good faith to spare the feelings and console self-kicking confessional ND posters) in a way that smacks of complacency with a wink and a shrug... afterall "everybody has one, no big deal-no one was hurt". Instead of sobering, it comes off dismissive, even if not intended that way.

Sorry, but it's not a universal truth that it will happen to everyone who has a gun sooner or later, and it's also a perfect pre-made propaganda quote for the antis:

"Gun safety is an oxymoron. Even gun owners themselves will admit that all their guns will go off unintentionally eventually. Do you think that is a safe environment for your children to be around when they do? Obviously restrictions are imperative for public safety, and that's why we strongly urge you to support these new bills..."


Yes, NDs can happen to anybody when they aren't handling guns in a safe manner, and no one is immune if they are complacent about their handling of guns.
NDs are not inevitable, they are only preventable.

It's not a toy and it's not your friend.
It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake the instant that you put your hand on it.

Now, I've always liked when Tuner says this. Just like a power saw, a propane tank, or your car. A hand guided by a mind of complacency and lack of respect is the real danger.

 

[rainbowbob]

1911Tuner said: I don't care if it's unloaded. If you handle it carelessly in my presence, I won't be tactful...and if you point it at me, I won't be at all kind...Handle all guns as though they're loaded...and even when determined to be unloaded...handle them as though they are. Period.

To each their own I guess...

I won't handle an unloaded gun around you at all (carelessly or otherwise) since you feel so strongly about it - and I aim to please.

But I will dry-fire my UNLOADED firearm in my own house at my own discretion (after visually and manually insuring it is absolutely, positively, undeniably UNLOADED...twice).

I will even inspect the muzzle of my revolver with the cylinder swung out.

 

[blackcash88]

I propose that each time we pick up a gun our chances of having a ND gets less and less. We all only have a finite amount of time on this earth and there is a finite number of how many times we will handle a firearm. Each time we handle one, that's one less chance of having a ND.

Something to think about...

 

[1911Tuner]

But I will dry-fire my UNLOADED firearm in my own house at my own discretion

As you wish...but you won't be dry-firing it in mine....nor will I, except to test function in the shop...never for practice. Had a guy in my kitchen once who was dry-firing while I watched his fast-draw technique. After about 25 or 30 repetitions, he declared the practice session over...reloaded his pistol and holstered it. I stepped out to let the dogs back in, and while I was out, he drew and "dry" fired one more time. Bang. Killed my nice refigerator with ice maker and water dispenser. On the upside, he did hit the Donald Duck magnet dead center.

His brain was still in the dry-fire mode. Seems that he forgot he'd reloaded the gun.

This was an old hand at gun-handling, with many decades of experience under his belt and fifteen years with the county sheriff's department. This was his first negligent discharge.

Walking around, dry-firing inside the house at random "targets' is a bad habit to get into unless there's a designated area for that purpose, with an adequate bullet trap.

But, you may do as you wish in your house of course.

 

[Roadkill]

I had a 12 ga Winchester 97 got off on me thirty seven years ago. Never have forgot it. Won't do it again either.

 

[ericyp]

Thanks. I've decided not to sell yet, but I'm going to be storing the CCW with the cylinder swung out from now on.

 

[rainbowbob]

As you wish...but you won't be dry-firing it in mine....nor will I, except to test function in the shop...never for practice.

Isn't dry-firing in the shop to test function a contradiction of your policy? How will you be certain it is not loaded? Just wondering.

 

[SSN Vet]

C'mon SSN Vet.................if you haven't, it's more than likely that you WILL. Or you NEARLY have!...........Deny that and I'll call you less than honest!

Well you can call me whatever you want to....I don't require, nor necessarilly desire your approval to set my life's course.

It's not about being holier than though or any body else.....

It's about due diligence, it's about respecting a tool that can take human life, it's about being anal and not apologizing for it.

Let me put it into perspective for you....

For eight years I worked a job where I was one of the regular custodians of the reactor safety keys as well as the keys to the nuclear weapons security alarm system and I trained and supervised the guys who operated the reactor and maintained the long skinny tubes in "the room"...

My employer (the USN) has been bouncing around hot rod, compact nuclear reactors like a NASCAR driver and manning the ultimate line in the sand for 60 years. We're talking about hundreds of ships and tens of thousands of sailors. And believe me, if there's any possible way to break it, sailors will manage to do it rolleyes

Guess what? Despite what Dr. Strangelove wants you to think, they have not had a "negligent discharge" on one of those long skinny birds yet.

Do you really believe it is inevitable that they will? and if not, why not?

It's all men and machines....and men make mistakes and machines malfunction, yet they have managed to get it right.

Due diligence my friend....

check and double check. Get the principle of muzzle control engrained into your very being. Always think twice when your finger goes to the trigger.

you can enjoy shooting them and have a lot of fun, but never consider them as toys, because they're not.

I'm not looking down my nose at the OP or anyone else. But I have never had a ND and I mean to not ever have one.

There but for the grace of God go I.....

but please note....even with his negligence (imo) the OP managed to not hurt anybody. Why? Because he understood a system of checks and double checks and principles. And when he was dry firing, he wasn't pointing the revolver at his little brother's head. Now the poor switch plates another story....but the system backed him up and he's able to bemoan his mistake and learn his lesson.

My best friend died 24 years ago and his girlfriend has been a vegitable ever since because they were my guest and my poor judgement put us all in a car with a drunk driver behind the wheel......it was not inevitable, it was totally avoidable.....and it won't happen again.

life is precious and yet fragile.....it needs to be safegaurded with every fiber of your being.

 

[avan47]

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

Two of my accidental discharges occurred because of malfunctioning guns. In both cases, rule II above prevented injury or damage. The one thing I had control of in both cases was where the muzzle was pointed. Another AD occurred on a hunting trip one cold winter day in upper Michigan. I was lowering the hammer of a lever action rifle to the half-cock position, the only safety on that gun, when my gloved thumb slipped off the hammer. Again, rule 2 above saved the day.

The one that made the biggest impression on me happened while shooting on a range. I was getting ready to shoot a muzzle loading smooth bore which I had previously used on a hunting trip. It is common practice to snap a few caps on a cap lock muzzle loader to clear the fire channel before loading and shooting. The caps should be snapped with the muzzle pointing down range on a hot range (rule 2 again) which I did. Imagine my surprise, when the gun discharged – because, It wasn’t loaded (rule 1 above). On the afore mentioned hunting trip, I didn’t shoot anything. I should have discharged the gun (easiest way to empty it) and cleaned it before taking it home. Instead, I thought, “I’m going hunting again tomorrow and I don’t want to clean it”, so I took the cap off the nipple, put the gun in a case, and put it away when I got home. (Uncapped, the gun is considered unloaded, and is legal to carry in a vehicle.) The planned hunting trip never happened, and you know the rest of the story. When snapping caps, it is customary to aim the gun at a blade of grass (in a safe direction) and watch it move when the cap fires, to insure the channel is clear. I had a friend whom I used to shoot with that was in the habit of holding his hand over the muzzle when he fired the first cap. Many of us tried to tell him how unsafe that practice was, but he insisted it would never be a problem. We now call him “old hole in the hand”. I’m glad I wasn’t there when it happened. Go back and read rule 1 again.

As to dry-firing, you obviously did not want to destroy the wall socket, so – what to do? On a revolver, I always open the cylinder, and count the empty holes – at least twice. In dim light, check them by feel and by sight, or get better light. With an auto pistol, remove the magazine, open the action and check the bore and the magazine well. Again, if necessary, get better light. With a rifle, open the action and check the bore and the magazine; then, check it again. The “no live ammo in the room with you” is a good rule. Snap caps are also a good idea. If you know you are going to violate rule 2, you cannot afford to let down your guard and not be absolutely sure the gun is unloaded. I know this has been a long post, and I don’t usually post to a thread that has had this many responses, and I don’t like admitting to my mistakes, but this is too important to ignore. Thanks for reading this far.

 

[1911Tuner]

Well...I guess I'm just too much of a stickler for being safe with guns. It's a hot-button topic for me. There are a few reasons for that. I won't go into them here...but here's the bottom line.

Pulling the trigger fires the gun. If you pull the trigger, you must expect the gun to fire, and you must be prepared to accept the legal, moral, and financial responsibility for firing it. If you insist on dry-fire practice inside your dwelling, I strongly suggest an area be designated specifically for that purpose, and have no ammunition present in the area. Once the session is over, lay the gun down empty...or reload and reholster it...and don't touch it for an hour to give your nerves and muscles time to "forget" to point the gun and pull the trigger.

I know that sounds silly...but it happens. People get caught up in the practice and forget. They point and click one...more...time. I know that we all think that it can't happen to us, because we're much too smart and we'd never, ever forget.

 

[RobMoore]

Handle all guns as though they're loaded...and even when determined to be unloaded...handle them as though they are. Period.

Not period. You don't stick your hand in front of the muzzle of a loaded 1911, but you do when you've determined it to be empty and you want to take it apart. There IS a difference between a loaded gun and an unloaded gun. Some things you don't do with either, like point them at someone else, but there is an honest difference.

 

[Hook686]

Think about this event each time you go to pick up a firearm.

There are no unloaded firearms RobMoore

 

[SlipperyShooter]

Check every gun, every time you pick it up. If you check it and set it down, check it again when you pick it up (even if it was 5 seconds ago).

If your buddy checks it and hands it to you, CHECK IT. If you check it, hand it to your buddy, and he doesn't check it, CHECK YOUR BUDDY.

 

[RobMoore]

No unloaded firearms, ehh? So I guess you've never cleaned yours, or even set it down....
because we know its not safe to leave a loaded weapon unsecured.

Safety is something you perform with your brain, not mindlessly. Relying on mindless habit is what gets you into trouble. If you slow down and think about what you're doing, you CAN realize with 100% certainty that you have made a firearm safe and empty, and can now perform necessary tasks with it in that condition.

If you LITERALLY treat every firearm as if its loaded 24/7/365, you can't do many of the things you need to do with it.

You DO do things with unloaded guns that you don't do with loaded ones. Its a simple fact. On the other side of the same coin, you don't do certain things with either. THOSE are the things people need to keep in mind when obeying the first rule of gun safety.

 

[blackcash88]

If you LITERALLY treat every firearm as if its loaded 24/7/365, you can't do many of the things you need to do with it.

Exactly. If you robotically follow all four of Cooper's laws all the time, you couldn't even carry a gun, either, because multiple times during the day, you WILL cover someone with the muzzle. Pocket carry? Oops, can't sit across the table from someone. IWB/OWB carry? Oops, can't go upstairs either, I guess. Carry in a horizontal holster rig? Better make sure no one's in line behind you.

Use your brain!

 

[Funderb]

There are no unloaded firearms RobMoore

I think you are mixed up,
Treat every firearm as if it were loaded,
and there is no such thing as an inherently safe firearm,

You much realize that the rules are to be followed not verbatim, but with the common sense and judgement that human beings are so gifted with. If you are a fundamentalist in this manner, you will never actually be able to do anything with a firearm.

 

[blackcash88]

I like this better. Treat each "new" session with a firearm like it's loaded. Once it's been verified visually, tactilely, etc then it IS unloaded. Seriously...I'm not going to keep checking the chamber after every dry fire or when cleaning it. But, once the gun is put up, out of sight, given to another person, etc...it "becomes" loaded again regardless of whether it is or isn't. That's my approach and in over 20 years of firearm ownership and many years of carry, I've never had an ND and never intend to.