I have a problem with "Shot placement is key" and "Overpenetration"

[mljdeckard]

But you don't know before you get there which situation you will be in.

 

[Loosedhorse]

that you won't need the best ammo you can get?

The "best ammo" depends on the situation.

But you don't know before you get there which situation you will be in.

Exactly. So why are you claiming there's a single "best ammo you can get"?

There's a best ammo for a given situation. If you it's likely think you'll be in situation X, pick ammo for that; if you think it's more likely that you'll be in situation Y, pick ammo for that.

And if you think it's likely that between the time you trigger your first shot and the time you reach for your reload--or your back-up gun--your situation may have changed from X to Y, then put different ammo in your reload (or back-up gun).

Personally, I think a .308 rifle would make a great back-up gun in some situation Ys.

 

[mljdeckard]

That's what I keep for backup. (More correctly as a primary, if I can get to it.) We're talking about handguns here, and a .308 certainly isn't the solution for overpenetration.

We're splitting hairs here, and everyone should carry whatever they want. All I wanted to question was if a round that is fine with shot placement is really good enough, and whether you can plan on any round stopping in the target.

 

[Fremmer]

So if it completely penetrates, do you get your money back?

 

[mljdeckard]

No. If it completely penetrates, it did exactly what it was supposed to.

 

[45_auto]

No. If it completely penetrates, it did exactly what it was supposed to.

So your recommendation is to always carry ball ammo instead of hollowpoints since the ball has the best penetration?

 

[mljdeckard]

Not at all. Any premium JHP ammo is very likely to completely traverse a human target.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Any premium JHP ammo is very likely to completely traverse a human target.

You have proposed an hypothesis. Support it.

I'll accept, for example, ER records (and autopsy records) of those shot with .45 ACP premium ammo; perhaps we can get to a percentage of how often such JHPs overpenetrate.

And a consensus for what "very likely" means. To me, "likely" means over 50% of the time; "very likely" should be --what?--75-80% of the time? Higher?

I await your data. Personally, I think that if .45 ACP JHPs were over-penetrating 80% of the time, that would be common knowledge. Instead, I more often hear folks arguing that even .45 ACP hardball won't overpenetrate.

a .308 certainly isn't the solution for overpenetration.

It can be:

But, in any case, I proposed the .308 as a solution for when I need more penetration than I'm comfortable carrying for my first shots. I wonder why you misunderstood that.

 

[ChCx2744]

Someone was on the topic of pistol rounds and over penetration earlier, which is what I would like to address. The pistol is pretty much just going to be my reflex, immediate threat suppressor, while my main objective is to run away and get to a rifle. If the threat is not neutralized and continues to where I am armed with a rifle, the rifle will take care of any "lack of penetration" issues; unless I can run away some more.

 

[mljdeckard]

The only one who seems surprised by the notion that defensive ammo is likely to completely traverse a human target is you. I use the word 'likely', because there is no guarantte that any bullet will do anything.

I'm not at al impressed by ER records. I'm much more interested in morgue records.

Do YOU have any?

 

[Loosedhorse]

The only one who seems surprised by the notion that defensive ammo is likely to completely traverse a human target is you

That's a second hypothesis. Now you have two to support.

By the way, there's this guy named Massad Ayoob:

Home defense rounds should be hollow points (HP), for the same reason that this type of ammo is universal among American police. The HP is designed to expand into a mushroom shape as it passes through flesh. This slows it down and reduces its penetration, making it unlikely that the projectile will pass through the felon’s torso and go on to strike a bystander who was blocked from the shooter’s position by the bulk of the criminal he shot.

My emphasis. It seems you are wrong, and I am not the only person who would be surprised if were true that defensive ammo is very likely to traverse a human attacker, as you claim. He says it is unlikely to penetrate, you say it is very likely--whom are we to believe?



Don't worry, I won't hold my breath waiting for your data.

I'm not at al impressed by ER records. I'm much more interested in morgue records.

Yes, well, complete data might interfere with your hypotheses, so I understand that. Yet as far as I can ascertain, more folks shot with handguns (other than suicide) end up wounded rather than dead, so any full picture would have to include ER records, despite your bias.

As for data supporting that we would need to look at ER records as well: WISQARS lists 11,825 homicide (non-suicide)/legal intervention, firearms-realted deaths for 2009; and over 45,000 firearms-related, non-fatal injuries for assault (non-self-harm)/legal intervention.

If we just look at legal intervention, the numbers are 333 and 679. Most people survive being shot.

 

[mljdeckard]

Don't believe me? Do your own testing.

Massad Ayoob would never say that you should plan on your bullet stopping in the target.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Massad Ayoob would never say that you should plan on your bullet stopping in the target.

Ah. Well, I guess you're more comfortable speaking for him than I am. I note that if I select a certain round for SD, I am in fact planning on it performing in a certain way...but not depending on it doing so. If I can't have certainties (and there are very few of those), I can still work with probablilities.

I'm still not sure if, when he said "unlikely" you think he meant "very likely;" or if when you said "very likely" you actually meant "unlikely." Either one would sure explain my impression that the two of you actually disagree, even though you seem to think you agree.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.Massad Ayoob would never say that you should plan on your bullet stopping in the target.

Is that code for he insures himself heavily?

 

[mljdeckard]

In a word, yes, I am. I have all of his books, he is one of many opinions I listen to. I can state that one with pretty high confidence.

I just honestly feel that you are putting very refined and subtle distinctions on a very violent and unpredictable object.

(I think I'm done, btw.)

 

[seeker_two]

So, you think 11-15" won't traverse a human target, Corbon Powerball is moderately powerful ammo, and that you will know at the beginning of a fight, that you won't need the best ammo you can get?

1. It may sometimes....then, it may not. It will expand....which is what I want.
2. It is moderately powerful when compared to other ammo.
3. It's the best for what I want it to do.

Anything else?

 

[CaliCoastie]

Shoot placement is key, I stopped associating myself with some one who told me that they liked to use a7mm mag deer hunting, because it didn't master where he shoot the deer. It does matter, if you have a deer that's quartering away from you and you pull your shoot just a little you take the shoulder out and the deer runs off. Caliber is not a substitute for poor shooting.
I unlike allot of people online am not prefect and took that shoot and lost my deer,I also felt like a$$ after. So go ahead and delude your self that placement isn't key......

 

[JPG19]

More damage will be done to the threat if the round does not fully penetrate through them and exit out the back. If I ever have to use such force, I want the threat to be stopped as quickly as possible.

 

[PedalBiker]

I've skipped over some portions of this thread, but I think a couple of things got missed.

One person mentioned the broadhead tipped arrow - the shape of the projectile is very important, including the sharpness of the edges. If you look at an expanded Golden Saber or PDX-1 you'll notice they're pretty jagged.


I like the FBI requirements - in large part due to the fact that it requires testing of at least a rudimentary nature. The discipline applied by the FBI protocol has been very beneficial. Even the Hornady Critical Defense which is stated as not being designed for the protocol used it as a baseline and Hornady had to do testing to ensure that the ammunition was doing what they wanted. In the past manufacturers would put a hole in the front of the bullet and call it good. The fact that we've got expanding ammo in 230g 45 and 147g 9mm is amazing.

 

[GunnerShotz]

But you don't know before you get there which situation you will be in.

Exactly!

Not only unfortunate, but also tragic sometimes, that we don't have a crystal (or stainless steel ) ball that will see into the future for us. For the High Road record: I think you're both right. You know which both I'm talking about

I'll just essentially reiterate what I said the first time in this thread and then shut up:

I'll do my best to plan ahead and use what should be the 'best' firearm with the 'most' penetrating round that I am Most comfortable and accurate with for any conceivable situation. I'll also Plan on being less than perfect by following rule #4 by doing my best to be aware of what's beyond my target.

...... In my very humble opinion, the general nature of the original topic has led to some more specific ones that are being argued. Nothing wrong with that, but.....

 

[Teachu2]

More damage will be done to the threat if the round does not fully penetrate through them and exit out the back. If I ever have to use such force, I want the threat to be stopped as quickly as possible.

If the two rounds had equal energy, this would be a valid argument. If they don't, the argument is invalid.

If round A has 500 ft/lbs of energy when it impacts a subject and does not exit, it has delivered 500 ft/lbs to the subject.

If round B has 800 ft/lbs of energy when it impacts a subject and exits the subject with 100 ft/lbs of energy remaining, it has delivered 700 ft/lbs of energy to the subject.

I once witnessed a near-perfect delivery of such energy. My training officer shot a fleeing subject with a 9mm Silvertip from his duty weapon, at a distance of approximately 25 yards. The bullet entered the subject above the right kidney 3" to the right of the spine, traversed his abdomen, and exited just above his navel, where it was captured by his flannel shirt. Exit wound was about the same size as the entrance wound. To the naked eye, the bullet appeared to have completely failed to expand. The subject fell to the ground and surrendered - and I was low man on the totem pole, so I got to go with him to the hospital to collect evidence and maintain custody throughout his surgery. Subject survived.

OTOH, I attended three autopsies of subjects who had been shot with .45acp HP rounds - "Flying Ashtrays", as they were known back then. The three had 2-3 wounds each, and the Coroner on duty stated that was excessive - any of the 7 total hits were sufficient to cause death within seconds.

Didn't take me long to qualify my 1911...

 

[Loosedhorse]

In a word, yes, I am. I have all of his books, he is one of many opinions I listen to. I can state that one with pretty high confidence.

One does wonder why anyone bothers going to Ayoob's courses or reading his stuff...when they can just ask you what he would say.

Oh, well: enough silliness. I quoted for you what he did say, not my "high confidence" idea of what he might say. If with all your reading, you can't find anywhere where Ayoob says what you think he should say, well, that's telling.

 

[gym]

Why don't you just ask him, I believe he is still a member here. He has answered any questions asked of him in the past. You can also reach him through backwoodshome.com, his blog.
I still say every situation is different. I have seen with my own eyes a guy who was shot in Colombia, 5 times with a 45, and unless he lifted his shirt and showed you the scars, you would never know it. It appeared to be ball ammo, but I wasn't going to ask him too much about it.
He had come to my apt 30 yrs ago, with a girlfriend of mine and his wife, and it just came up as he had a few too many drinks. She knew the guy for some time, needless to say I never saw him again, but the holes were there, they just missed every vital organ, like a "pulp fiction moment". All were in the torso. I believe the rapper 50 cents was shot 5 or 6 times with a 9mm also, he fully recovered, so it's more to do with where you get hit, than anything else.

 

[CZguy]

I've skipped over some portions of this thread, but I think a couple of things got missed.

You might want to read the thread.

 

[marcclarke]

Of course not. But how do they relate? If no relation, why would we even bother using gel?

Calibrated ballistic gelatin replicates human muscle tissue for measuring expansion and penetration. Col. Martin Fackler, MD, a US Army Vietnam combat surgeon, was looking for better ways to treat bullet wounds. He first determined (experimentally) that pig muscle replicated human tissue as far as bullet wounds were concerned. (Note: not deer muscle, not cow muscle, not clay, not horse muscle, etc.)

He then shot a bunch of pigs and measured the wound tracks.

He and other International Wound Ballistics Association members, including Duncan MacPherson, then worked out the correct concentration of gelatin, the correct temperature, and the correct viscosity and density corrections (using a BB fired at a known velocity) to match the characteristics of porcine muscle tissue. (Note: muscle, not organs.)