I have a problem with "Shot placement is key" and "Overpenetration"

[Loosedhorse]

^^I agree with your post entirely. However, we shouldn't overlook the limitations of gel tests.

First: as you said, gel simulates pig muscle. How well it simulates hits into human fat, lung and abdomen is an open question.

Second, I don't believe anyone has come up with a "calibrated" bone simulant (meaning, we know it behaves similarly to human bone when struck by bullets), and so we do guesstimates of how bone hits (ribs) would lessen or increase the penetration of bullets.

Finally, gel is only capable of helping us estimate penetration, not effectiveness at stopping an attacker. Stopping an attacker is what most of us are looking for.

 

[Fremmer]

Lol then you can't rely on the penetration stats for your preferred non - penetrating (?) Round.
But I guess its a good argument.

 

[Virg461]

Interesting how almost this entire discussion centered on handguns. Yes, you can certainly be assaulted while out and about. My main concern, however, is the protection of my family. At home, I follow this logic:

.45 ACP: muzzle energy 500-600 ft/lbs (with the right ammo)
12 gauge buckshot: 1600 ft/lbs divided into 9 round lead balls.

At "across the room" distances, buckshot hits like the hammer of Thor and does not "overpenetrate". Those little rounds lead balls would deliver nearly 100% of the muzzle energy into any attacker.

I understand that concealed carry requires a handgun (unless one is a fan of trenchcoats ). But at home, my 870 is the defense weapon of choice.

 

[CZguy]

But at home, my 870 is the defense weapon of choice.

Yep me too. 12 ga is a one shot stopper.

 

[jrdolall]

Has there ever been a confirmed case where a person was shot CM at 25 feet or less with a 12 g buckshot round and kept moving?
I am still looking for a CCW that holds 5 rounds of 12 g and fits in my jeans pocket. One of you engineer types should be able to design one and us sales types will be able to sell it.

 

[gym]

The problem with a shotgun is tranversing an apartment or house without hitting a wall with the stock of the gun when you need to fire quickly, or having a relative in close proximity to the perp. You can't get a clean shot unless you get him alone in a room large enough to manuver your weapon.
Also I frown on keeping a shotgun next to my bed, as that would freak my family out, and taking it out at night will get old fast.
You may keep one in a closet in your bedroom and use your 45 to get to it, if necessary, just not going from room to room, unless you have a backup team with you. it's hard to swing a shotgun around the house and not hit something. If someone were in a bathroom, you could easily get off balance trying to look in holding a long gun.
If you just stay in your bedroom and wait for police, then it is a workable process.

 

[seeker_two]

One of the positives of a SxS coach gun is its short overall length....great for small spaces.

That said, by the time you use your pistol to fight your way to your shotgun, you may not have anyone left to fight....

 

[sgtstryker]

I tend to go with the shot placement is key crowd. Mr. Ayoob tells in Am. Handgunner of a Police Officer chasing a bad guy. He knew the bg was shooting at him but wasn't aware of the hits until the physical part of the capture took place. The bg had a G21, the Officer was hit at least three times, none were killers. Adrenalin, yes. Many things go into how a bullet reacts once it contacts the target. Wasn't Larry Flint shot with .44 mag ? He survived, tho crippled, to continue his pathetic existence.

 

[Virg461]

You can't get a clean shot unless you get him alone in a room large enough to manuver your weapon.

Not sure I agree with that. A pump shotgun with an 18 inch barrel is very maneuverable. And a WHOLE LOT more powerful stopper than a handgun.

Don't get me wrong, I like handguns. They're portable and concealable. But if I hear breaking glass at 3 am, I'm grabbing the 870, not a pistol.

 

[ranydl]

Don't really need to argue this. The FBI keeps a database of shootings by federal and any other participating LEO's. Until they stopped using them, the .357 with 125 gr hp loads had more (one shot) stops than any other handgun by many times over. High velocity + lightly constructed HP bullets = massive wounds.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

 

[Fremmer]

That's not an effective round because it overpenetrates.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Actually the older (Federal "red box" and Remington SJHP) 125 gr HPs in .357 Mag were known for fragmenting, and so at least in one test didn't make the FBI min. penetration depth of 12 inches; their penetration is often listed deeper as 12-13 inches.

Quote:

Remington led the way on this more than a quarter century ago with a bullet that screamed out of a 4-inch barrel at as much as 1,450 fps. Its scallop-jacketed hollowpoint tended to open and shed fragments to the side like little razor blades while the still-expanding core of the bullet kept going. Federal's answer was to use a wider-mouth hollowpoint for super-fast expansion. In both cases, the rounds almost never over penetrate, and Indianapolis Police Department reported that in more than 200 shootings there was never an effective return of fire by a perpetrator after taking a solid hit with one.

 

[BBQLS1]

Of course not. But how do they relate? If no relation, why would we even bother using gel?

The FBI decided that 12 inches equals enough penetration in gel to consistently penetrate enough bad guy.

 

[GunnerShotz]

I know I said I would shut up my last post on this thread, but I can't help it...

The gel tests are only going to be indicative of the "ideal" IMHO. The penetration of any particular calibur round fired out of any particular gun is going to be effected by the resistance of the first thing it hits.

So, I'll go one step farther than I have in previous posts and say in summary: Shot placement is most definitely key AND overpenetration is definitely a concern that invokes (which I've already said twice before) Rule #4!

 

[AntiSpin]

Someone above asked for a morgue report. Here's a terrific one:

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

Also, the formula for kinetic energy has been misstated above. It is not "mass times the square of the velocity." It is ONE-HALF the mass, times the square of the velocity.

Makes a big difference, and if it's energy you're after, it makes velocity king of the hill.

 

[gym]

Masaad did an article on this recentlly on his website grassroots.com. It explains it in detail. Small calibers large calibers, they will all kill you equally as well depending on where you are hit. But if you browse his site you can get it right from the experts mouth. The statistics are different than we percieve them to be. If you can shoot a 22 lr like, erp then that will work for you as well as nything else.
That doesn't mean that it's as effective in a non critical area. But it all depends on your proficiancy with the weapon.
A 45 or 10mm won't do much good if you can't hit the person in a spot that will stop them.