Craig M. Arnold
Member
I've have two P3ATs. One has about 1300 rounds through it and the other has about 900 rounds through it. Both have been perfect. I carry one all the time.
Best regards.
Best regards.
I Love Kel-Tecs
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I got rid of my PF-9s because:
1. It punished my hand after about 100 rounds at the range
2. My wife had a hard time controlling it
3. It does not have a soft trigger reset
I do like my SUB-2000 in theory, but in practice it has poor ergonomics, and shooting it lefty leaves me with a face full of discharge. I'll keep the SUB-2000 just because I like the way it folds in half under the front seat of my car and it uses 33rd Glock mags.
I'm tempted by the 3AT, but I've heard that accuracy is dicey even at 7 yards.
PS - I replaced the PF-9 with a CZ P-01 for carry. Bigger gun, but better ergonomics and double the capacity.
1. It punished my hand after about 100 rounds at the range
2. My wife had a hard time controlling it
3. It does not have a soft trigger reset
I do like my SUB-2000 in theory, but in practice it has poor ergonomics, and shooting it lefty leaves me with a face full of discharge. I'll keep the SUB-2000 just because I like the way it folds in half under the front seat of my car and it uses 33rd Glock mags.
I'm tempted by the 3AT, but I've heard that accuracy is dicey even at 7 yards.
PS - I replaced the PF-9 with a CZ P-01 for carry. Bigger gun, but better ergonomics and double the capacity.
cmidkiff said:
No, there was no collaboration between KT and Ruger as I mentioned before and that came from a KT employee on KTOG.org. Also, George Kelgren, the owner of KT, didn't patent anything other than a folding bayonet. Not one darned thing, which wasn't too smart. I also posted a link earlier to the KTOG forum discussing this.
MaterDei
Member
I really like my Keltec and admire the company for their service and their ability to think outside the box and not just follow the leader. They are the leader. Nobody knows what kind of gun the LCP will be so don't prejudge it, good or bad.
JERRY
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no hands on, but ruger is known for over building thier guns making them more durable than the rest as far as handguns go...if this holds true then thier .380 will be all that and a bag of chips....
it has all the benefits of the k.t 3at, but it added some refinements that k.t. hasnt....but like youve eluded to, the rubber hasnt hit the road so we shall see.....
it has all the benefits of the k.t 3at, but it added some refinements that k.t. hasnt....but like youve eluded to, the rubber hasnt hit the road so we shall see.....
Yup, I'm highly anticipating this Ruger and hope it's a winner. I've been 'round and 'round with Kel-Tec and my P3ATs so I hope this Ruger spanks them in this department. Or at least light a fire under their arse and force them to improve quality control. 
No kidding, KTs sent me so many parts that if I had a couple of extra frames barrels and slides lying around I could build a couple complete P3ATs.
No kidding, KTs sent me so many parts that if I had a couple of extra frames barrels and slides lying around I could build a couple complete P3ATs.
JERRY
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competition is good, it will bring out the best offerings and leave the sub-par behind.....
if the Ruger .380 lives up to the Ruger reputation, Kel-Tec will either make a better product or be left behind with only a few fans who just wont let go due to a false scense of obligation and ego....
lets hope it will make kel-tec produce the gun they should have....
if the Ruger .380 lives up to the Ruger reputation, Kel-Tec will either make a better product or be left behind with only a few fans who just wont let go due to a false scense of obligation and ego....
lets hope it will make kel-tec produce the gun they should have....
JERRY said:
Yup, like the die hard "KT can never do no wrong" fanboys over at KTOG.org who flame members for simply saying ANYTHING negative about their KT pistols, even though it's completely true. They're perfectly happy to grind away on their pistols just to get them to even WORK. Sure, some people get good P3ATs straight from the box, but many do not. I've NEVER had to fluff and buff or take a tool, sandpaper, whatever to a NEW pistol to get it to work (beyond normal break in) before encountering the KT line up. Heck, the original P3ATs self-destructed magazines due to a poor feed ramp design which caused "smilies" by slamming into the front of the next round and the followers when the last round was fired. I had several mags replaced by KT because they cracked at the rear under both feed lips as well as chewed up followers. Great design there KT. It was we beta testers (i.e. the CUSTOMER) who figured this out and made the cut to round out the bottom of the feed ramp. I did this mod myself and it helped greatly. Instead of KT testing and figuring this out up front, they just copied us and incorporated the cut into the 2nd gen P3ATs. It's pretty apparent KT didn't do much testing on the 1st gen P3AT as many suffered from these "smiley" problems and it became readily apparent soon after owning the pistol...even to a KT "newbie" like me way back when. But KT's design/testing staff somehow "missed" this little faux paux? The ONLY reason I know about KTOG.org (and the others) is because of searching for solutions to P3AT problems.
Now, KT has recently had a bad run of slides where the metal around the guide rod hole was machined too thin and it would peen outward to the point that the recoil springs would pop out the front of the slide!!! Instead of sending it back and making KT replace the slide, those idiots came up with a "solution" to the peening guide rod hole by using a half-assed "fix" by making up a "buffer" washer. Yeah, go ahead and have fun guys instead of sending this CRAP back to KT so they can FIX it permanently because the metal is too damned thin!. :banghead:
Then there's the STILL incorporated crappy plastic/polymer mag catch. Um, didn't anyone at KT even think about which material is going to "win" against a plastic/polymer catch and a STEEL mag body interface? Again, so much for extensive testing before spraying these things out as fast as they can to the massses. These catches shave off and cause premature mag release when firing and, heck, pressure from being in a pocket. But, it's all good, right? KT will send you free replacements when you find out your P3AT has become a one shot wonder when it's REALLY needed...if the user survives. My Kahr PM9 has a plastic/polymer catch, but they had the foresight to have a STEEL "shelf" pinned into the mag catch where it interfaces with the STEEL mag body. Glocks have a polymer only mag catch, but it interfaces with polymer coated mags, too. But, people won't hold KT accountable for this flaw and make their own metal mag catches, which they have done.
Don't believe me? Check out this stuff at KTOG.org and that's just ONE site with these heavily documented problems. They are a pin prick on the horizon of gun owners and look at all the problems there. I really, really, really hope Ruger gets this one right and KT had better...
Ruger, please get this one RIGHT!
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My post/rant was directed at the P3AT. My P11 has been reliable even though I don't shoot it that much anymore. I absolutely HATE that loooong and heeeeavy trigger KT put on the P11 and I have the trigger shoe installed, too. It's absolutely the worst trigger I've seen on a firearm. Too bad, because aside from the trigger and the crappy plastic sights (I could move the rear with finger pressure), it's not a bad pistol overall. Good size/weight/capacity for the caliber it uses.
I like the P3AT for what it's SUPPOSED to be, but I will NOT carry it ever again. I only keep it around for the "small, cute, novelty" factor. I sure hope the new P3AT competing Ruger is a "workin' man's gun".
I like the P3AT for what it's SUPPOSED to be, but I will NOT carry it ever again. I only keep it around for the "small, cute, novelty" factor. I sure hope the new P3AT competing Ruger is a "workin' man's gun".
M2 Carbine
member
Call KT and send the gun to them for a rebuild.
The 40 S&W conversion is a bit hard on my 9mm P-11 frame.
I called KT and asked them, if the gun gets to the point that I think it's unsafe to fire, what would it cost to have a new receiver installed?
They said when I think it's too worn, send it to them and they will replace the receiver and anything else that's excessively worn. No charge. The gun has a lifetime warranty.
Recently I sent my old P3AT to KT to be rebuilt. They replaced everything except the barrel and plastic grip, even the receiver.
Polished the barrel's feed ramp and paid to ship the gun to my door.
My charge was $0.00 for a better than new gun.
Well, M2... Replacing/rebuilding your guns provides some great and FALSE P.R. for KT and is much cheaper than a lawsuit should your KTs ever cause you injury... At what point do YOU consider it "unsafe" to fire? When the slide flies off or it KAbooms in your hand? Fails you at the ultimate moment of self-defense need?
MrAnteater
Member
I sometimes carry my P3AT in my pocket. But my S&W 340PD in .357 mag is a much more reassuring feeling.
M2 Carbine
member
False P.R.?
The unsafe point is my judgment call, which KT agreed to honor.
In my case my judgment call is backed up by 52 years of shooting and working on guns.
If YOU are unable to tell if a gun is so worn that the slide is about to fall off, then I'd suggest that you have someone check your guns periodically for your own safety.
You apparently have some problem with Kel Tec and frankly I don't give a damn, that's your problem.
I have 6 Kel Tecs and friends have more that have given good service, so don't include me in your whining.
MaterDei
Member
Scott, I'd be interested in seeing all of the Kabooms and slides flying off that you seem to be aware of. Have you got any pictures?
M2 Carbine
member
No, I don't think it works like that.
You probably wouldn't like it anyhow. Way too hot a round for that size and weight gun.
My 40 is a conversion.
It's been reliable and if I carried the P-11 I'd probably carry it with the conversion installed.
I don't shoot the 40 much any more, I practice with it as a 9mm.
Some time back KT did away with the 40 P-11. Good move. The gun is just no fun at all to shoot as a 40 S&W.
jfh
Member.
I bought a P3AT last fall--and had trouble with it early on--it would FTF and shuck the magazine. Eventually, I figured out that I had shaved the mag release; since I replaced it, the pistol has been 100% reliable, even with lighter-recoil reloads I built fifteen years ago for my kids to shoot.
I think I am going to have to agree with ScottD's point with his rant about this particular problem. It should not have ever been built this way, and Kel-Tec should do the metal release. Their warranty and service is excellent, but the fact that they continue to ship the P3AT (and others) with the plastic release doesn't speak well of the company.
Maybe they will do that now that Ruger's pounding down the most-powerful-mousegun-door.
Jim H.
I think I am going to have to agree with ScottD's point with his rant about this particular problem. It should not have ever been built this way, and Kel-Tec should do the metal release. Their warranty and service is excellent, but the fact that they continue to ship the P3AT (and others) with the plastic release doesn't speak well of the company.
Maybe they will do that now that Ruger's pounding down the most-powerful-mousegun-door.
Jim H.
jfh, I had one of the metal mag catches made by one of the members over on KTOG. I went back to the stock plastic one because the metal one was poorly made and didn't engage the magazine very well. He's out of the game now and that's a good thing. I guess I could have grinded on it, but I didn't want to mess with it.
I've had the same stock catch in my 2nd gen P3AT for about 2 years now. The "trick" is to "baby" the catch by depressing it before inserting a mag and holding it in until the mag is all the way in. When releasing the mag, I push up on the bottom of the mag then depress the catch, hold it in and let the mag come out. That way there's no "scraping" of the plastic mag catch against the steel magazine. Crappy design and I don't have to do that with any of my other numerous semi-autos, but it works, I guess.
Funny how you said your mag catch was inadvertently dropping mags EARLY ON for you. Happened to me, too. So much for KT's extensive design testing before it got released to the beta testers/sucker customers since so many problems cropped up EARLY ON after ownership. Like everyone else, I fought with the 1st gen feed ramp design damaging the nose of the rounds and mag followers leading to eventual cracking at the top and back of the magazine. Some just decided to ignore it, but I did the feed ramp mod. As for the mag catch, this has been an issue for a very LONG time and KT knows about it, yet does nothing to fix it beyond spraying out free parts costing them money. Yeah, great customer service KT...because you NEED it.
And what's up with that gimped out external LEAF spring extractor and "frankenbolt" that ALWAYS loosens up (causing FTE)? You have to use a thread locking compound because KT does NOT put any on at the factory. KT couldn't figure out how to make a conventional coiled spring/pivot axis extractor on the P3AT? They went through at least three different extractor hook designs, including going back to the P32 extractor (I know...had 'em all) before scrapping the pistol altogether for the 2nd gen design. It looks like it was cobbled together by third world slave labor. Look at how much more elegant and "normal" the Ruger extractor looks. We don't know how well it's going to work yet, but I'm betting that it will...and very well.
I fully understand every manufacturer lets a bad one get out the door from time to time, but it's usually not the lacking DESIGN that's the cause, but quality control. Sure, I've had to send guns back before, even my beloved Kimber, but the companies got them working CORRECTLY and they only had to go back ONCE. That was my experience until I came into KT ownership in the late 90's, so I know a little something about these pistols.
I've had the same stock catch in my 2nd gen P3AT for about 2 years now. The "trick" is to "baby" the catch by depressing it before inserting a mag and holding it in until the mag is all the way in. When releasing the mag, I push up on the bottom of the mag then depress the catch, hold it in and let the mag come out. That way there's no "scraping" of the plastic mag catch against the steel magazine. Crappy design and I don't have to do that with any of my other numerous semi-autos, but it works, I guess.
Funny how you said your mag catch was inadvertently dropping mags EARLY ON for you. Happened to me, too. So much for KT's extensive design testing before it got released to the beta testers/sucker customers since so many problems cropped up EARLY ON after ownership. Like everyone else, I fought with the 1st gen feed ramp design damaging the nose of the rounds and mag followers leading to eventual cracking at the top and back of the magazine. Some just decided to ignore it, but I did the feed ramp mod. As for the mag catch, this has been an issue for a very LONG time and KT knows about it, yet does nothing to fix it beyond spraying out free parts costing them money. Yeah, great customer service KT...because you NEED it.
And what's up with that gimped out external LEAF spring extractor and "frankenbolt" that ALWAYS loosens up (causing FTE)? You have to use a thread locking compound because KT does NOT put any on at the factory. KT couldn't figure out how to make a conventional coiled spring/pivot axis extractor on the P3AT? They went through at least three different extractor hook designs, including going back to the P32 extractor (I know...had 'em all) before scrapping the pistol altogether for the 2nd gen design. It looks like it was cobbled together by third world slave labor. Look at how much more elegant and "normal" the Ruger extractor looks. We don't know how well it's going to work yet, but I'm betting that it will...and very well.
I fully understand every manufacturer lets a bad one get out the door from time to time, but it's usually not the lacking DESIGN that's the cause, but quality control. Sure, I've had to send guns back before, even my beloved Kimber, but the companies got them working CORRECTLY and they only had to go back ONCE. That was my experience until I came into KT ownership in the late 90's, so I know a little something about these pistols.
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jakeswensonmt
Member
Agreed. The P11 is not a range gun, the recoil is punishing. I only shoot about a mag a month just to keep in practice. But in a SHTF situation I'll be loving that same recoil.
Markbo, I just checked two P3ATs (1st/2nd gens) and they both drop empty mags freely. Perhaps your mag well has a tighter tolerance. I know the grip lengths can vary because I had to sand my 1st gen grip down a touch when installing the metal mag catch because the magazine just wasn't seating quite high enough to engage the catch. Didn't have to do that with my 2nd gen, though.
The problem isn't whether the mags drop freely or not. It's the mags dropping on their own when firing and the thumb is NOWHERE near the mag release due to it wearing out over time from normal use and the BAD plastic/steel interface. Again, a piss poor and, to this day, un-remedied design.
The problem isn't whether the mags drop freely or not. It's the mags dropping on their own when firing and the thumb is NOWHERE near the mag release due to it wearing out over time from normal use and the BAD plastic/steel interface. Again, a piss poor and, to this day, un-remedied design.
Scott... I can live with mine more than I would yours!
Jake... for me it is not so much that it is punshing (I don't find it so), but that it is not very accurate. This is a 7-10 yard gun max and I just don't find those very fun to shoot at the range. Step off 15 and that group opens up quite a bit!
Now I have done some point shooting at 3-7 yards and I can hit what I am jamming a fist at with it... center mass is all I can expect out of this and as with all things a little practice is necessary. Not being my primary carry gun, I just don't practice with it that much.
Jake... for me it is not so much that it is punshing (I don't find it so), but that it is not very accurate. This is a 7-10 yard gun max and I just don't find those very fun to shoot at the range. Step off 15 and that group opens up quite a bit!
Now I have done some point shooting at 3-7 yards and I can hit what I am jamming a fist at with it... center mass is all I can expect out of this and as with all things a little practice is necessary. Not being my primary carry gun, I just don't practice with it that much.
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