I think it is time for a bolt rifle again

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chaim

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I know people sometimes hate the "which gun" threads, but I need help. I know pistols better than rifles, especially better than bolt rifles.

I am not a hunter, and I will not become a hunter. I'm not a top notch marksman. This gun will mainly be for fun at the range, but I want something that is good for medium long distances (200 yards is the longest distance at the outdoors range I'm most likely to go to, but as I get better that may change). I don't want something that I'll outgrow as soon as I'm a decent shot and can utilize longer ranges. I also don't have a ton of money to spend (I need to stay under $1K, preferably under $1K with a ~$100-200 starter scope and ideally under $1K with starter scope and a case of ammo :) ).

The two main guns I'm considering are: the CZ 550 American or Varmint, and the Howa 1500 (probably in the Varminter/Varminer Supreme or Thumbhole Sporter configurations). A bit lower on my list, but in consideration are the Remington 798, Browning BAR or BLR (yeah, I know I said bolt rifle, they are typical bolt rifle calibers anyway), or Browning A-bolt. Lower on the list, but possible contenders are the Remington 750 (a semiauto but in typical bolt rifle calibers) or a Ruger 77. Price wise the Howa seems the best deal with the Remington 798 and CZ vying for 2nd. Price independent they seem to be good guns, but of course the Browning would probably be the best of the bunch. However, I'd pretty much be limited to the cheaper Brownings in my price range, and are the cheaper Brownings really all that much better than the CZ or Howa?

Calibers I'm considering are 6.5x55, .243Win, .270Win, .308 (of course), 7mm-08, and maybe .260. I don't know why, but the idea of the 6-7mm chamberings really do appeal to me. I've long been interested in the 6.5x55 and 7mm-08, but ammo availability may be an issue when I don't order online (and online there may be fewer options to chose from than with the other calibers). With demand high and surplus drying up .308 isn't so cheap anymore, but few rifle calibers really are. I'm not overly recoil sensitive, but since I'm not a hunter and the idea of the gun is fun at the range, I don't want too much recoil that would cause me to tire and get less range time (I want less than 30-06 recoil, I'd prefer a little more than my 30-30 Win 94 or my SKS).
 
find whatever fat-barrel rifle appeals to you and run w/ it. 200 yards won't be much of a stretch for your purposes for anything 22 hornet and hotter.

my suggestion would a remington 700 vls in 221 fireball, but could like one in 6mm rem as well, and if you find one in 7-08, don't buy it - call me and i'll get it, then you can find one for yourself.

really, though, a heavy rifle in a mild chambering is lots of paper-punching fun.

since you won't be hunting, and you'll be just shooting for fun, i'd suggest sticking w/ a varmint-style rifle in something 6mm rem or smaller.

not sure why you think browning represents the pinnacle in rifles? i don't think they are - but opinions vary. hang a decent barrel on a fair action, and they'll all do what you want.
 
It isn't that I think Browning makes the best rifles, just the best on my list (though I'm not sure if the Brownings that would actually be more comparable with the others price wise are all that much better).

I guess I've been living in a cave when it comes to rifles. I just now found out that the Winchester name is back in the rifle business. Even though it may be more a hunting rifle, it may be over my price range once scoped, being lightweight recoil may be more than I want for my purposes, and it may not make practical sense, I have to add the Winchester 70 Featherweight to my list. It has the Schnabel fore end which I love, and the wood on every M70 Featherweight I've ever seen looks like it could have been used on a nice piece of furniture- they are just beautiful guns.
 
A 223 with match ammo will do everything you want, cheap. My Savage with a 1-7 twist shoot Black Hills 77g SMKs really well @ 500. I don't own any CZs, but I've seen them shoot really well. My 2 Howas shoot OK, but aren't anything special.
 
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Think I'd go with 223 for your purposes. If you get into reloading the cost is inexpensive, about the same as buying 17 HMR but a lot more performance. Lot of nice bolt action rifles in that caliber. Get one that fits you well.
 
A 223 with match ammo will do everything you want, cheap
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Think I'd go with 223 for your purposes
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I've thought about .223. The thing is, it would be perfect for right now, but as I get better I don't want to "grow out" of this gun too quickly. Once I am good enough to "graduate" to 400-600yrds will .223 still cover it? Is there commercial .223 with heavy enough bullets to do 600yrds and still have some wind left in them? I assume it can be done by reloading, is that an accurate assumption?

Still, there is just something about those 6-7mm chamberings that really interest me.
 
Once I am good enough to "graduate" to 400-600yrds will .223 still cover it?
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yep.

Is there commercial .223 with heavy enough bullets to do 600yrds and still have some wind left in them?
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I have taken my 18" ar-15 to 600 yards w/ black hills ammo 52 grain bthp loads... i note that bha also has some 69 loads, and i think i saw some 77's, but am not positive on that.
 
My 2 cents that dont really matter much anyways.

1903a3 in 30-06, I paid $325 for mine last fall (gunsamerica.com) and it shoots like it was made in heaven or something. The action is a smooth as glass (at least it feels like it) and (since I cant afford a scope yet, college) with the iron sites it shoots soda cans at 75 yards all day long (standing). Recoil with 185 grain federals, not even on par with a 12ga. Anyways, it is an old gun (mine is a 1943) and you might risk not finding replacement parts (im trying to get a new trigger guard and mag floor plate and no one has em). But its one heck of a cool/fun gun to shoot.
 
The 6.5x55 is a very good choice for your purpose, but I would recommend that you learn to reload for it.

I am in "early" process of working out a trade for a CZ in 6.5x55.
If Savage(Stevens) offered a 6.5 Swede, I would already have one(or two or three).

Reloading will make any round you choose much more affordable.

At least one of my 96 or 38 Swedish Mausers will be traded when the dust settles on my deal.

Regards
Old 112
 
Swiss K31
or find a nice Mauser in 8mm Mauser.
There is also the 1903 and its variants in .30-06
Even a Mosin Nagant will give you decent accuracy at 200 yards.

or just buy something new from Savage or CZ in a common American caliber and have fun with that.
.308 and .30-06 are available almost everywhere in the USA.
 
Lots of good options here. My suggestion is to talk to the locals and see if you can get a little test drive on some of their rigs. Now many will be more gun than you need but most of the time you can get the feel and make sure that they have the fit, finish, and performance that you want. I also always recommend that one spend less money on their gun/scope and more for ammo to learn to shoot it. You can buy a lot of off the shelf guns to run 200yards real well. (Just about any of the main players will do you proud!) A little money on the scope and buy a boat load of ammo to get right with it. Good equipment is a must, but lots of good trigger time makes the shooter!
 
A Savage Model 25 or Remington VLS in 223 is just the medicine you need.

Slap a Nikon monarch or Weaver V-16 or V-24 the V-16 is a 4-16x40mm the V-24 is a 6-24x40mm I prefer the 6-24x40 myself.

Federal Hornady and Laupa and others make very good factory match ammo for it as well.
 
OK, I just checked ammo prices at Natchez Shooters Supply online... I think 7mm-08 and .260Rem are out, they have the fewest loadings out of the calibers I'm considering and the cheapest offering is about $5 more than the cheapest for the others. By price it would be .308, .243, .270 and 6.5x55, with little difference (about a buck) between the cheapest .270 and 6.5x55 (around $15). The .243 by S&B is barely over $13, and the cheapest commercial S&B in .308 is just over $11. Of course, price isn't the only consideration so all are still in consideration. However, the .243 is slipping a bit. Wow, .223 ammo really has gone up ($7 for the cheapest S&B and over $8 for WWB :what: ). It sure has been a while since I bought any (I stocked up on .223/5.56 for my AR a few years ago), but it still is cheaper than the others.

The CZ in 6.5x55 sounds like what your looking for.
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The 6.5x55 is a very good choice for your purpose
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That is my emotional favorite. I started researching some years ago and thought I settled on this caliber (finances stopped me from buying the bolt rifle back then). However, I am concerned about ammo availability, there do not seem to be as many choices as in some of the American calibers, the American calibers can be bought at Walmart and in some areas if I don't buy online I won't be able to get 6.5x55 at all.


Right now, I'm thinking my caliber preferences (more or less in order are): 6.5x55 (though availability may drop it a spot or two), .270, .308/.223 (tie), then .243. However, they are all close enough, that if I don't buy online it may just come down to what the store has when I buy the gun.

Check out the Savages
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My first bolt rifle was a Savage (I think it was a 110) in 30-06. I never totally warmed to it. There was nothing wrong with it, but I think I want something a little nicer. Then again, the current Savage rifles with the adjustable trigger may be worthy of consideration. They are certainly far more accurate than I'll be (at least for a long, long time).


For the gun I'm still completely up in the air. Howa and CZ still make up the top of my list. The Browning A bolt or BLR are also pretty high. The Winchester Featherweight, as beautiful as it is, just doesn't make a lot of sense since I'm not a hunter (maybe a regular Winchester 70 may be nice, but it is on the high end of my price list). I'm really not sure about the Remington 798- I don't like how they got the contract away from Charles Daly and I don't like the 10-20% premium on the same gun for the Remington name, but it is a nice gun at a decent price. I'm not sure where to put the Ruger and Savage on my list, if I see one at the shop that catches my eye they may come home, but I think the CZ may be my current top choice.
 
This past spring, I bought a $500.00 tack-driver Remington 700 Varmint SPS in .223 Remington. It groups 0.18" at 100 yards with factory ammunition. :) I was using a cheap $79.00ish BSA 36X scope. Add the rings and bases for $59.00ish and a $10.00 case, well, you come in very well below your budget. Invest in reloading equipment and supplies with the balance.

Doc2005
 
A Savage Model 25 or Remington VLS in 223 is just the medicine you need.
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Hmm, just looked at your links. The price is great, the look is nice, nice heavy varmint/target barrel, weaver style bases installed, free floated barrel, adjustable accu-trigger- I think I need more info about that Savage 25.
 
I think I may be back to the Howa and CZ as top choices (though I may check out some of the other Savage varmint rifles) since I'm still not convinced that .223 is the caliber I'm looking for. If someone convinces me it will almost certainly be that Savage 25 (heck, if someone convinces me on 22 Hornet I may go with the Savage 40, I've seen them in the $300-400 range on Gunbroker). Though if I go with a "varmint" rifle it may limit the calibers to .308 and .243 if I want something more powerful than .223.
 
If Savage(Stevens) offered a 6.5 Swede, I would already have one(or two or three).
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Do it yourself. I did mine in 30 minutes, with a $99 barrel from Midway. Then sell your old barrel to help pay for it.
Once I am good enough to "graduate" to 400-600yrds will .223 still cover it? Is there commercial .223 with heavy enough bullets to do 600yrds and still have some wind left in them?
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NRA Highpower is shot at 600 yards, and I don't think a winner has shot anything but a 223 for many, many years. Black Hills loads factory ammo with 75g and 77g match bullets. Only Savage (that I am aware of) makes a 223 with the correct twist to use those.
A Savage Model 25 or Remington VLS in 223 is just the medicine you need.
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A Savage Model 25 costs as much as most of the Model 10/11/12 rifles, and you can't change the barrel on it yourself, unless you're a pretty good gunsmith.
 
Let me chime in (chaim in?) that if you are willing to go a little oddball, 6mm PPC or 6mm BR are two of the very top cartridges in benchrest comps, which are 300 yards or less. At 200 yards, 6mm PPC may be the perfect cartridge for target shooting. And any rifle you get chambered in this round (Sako, etc.) is likely to be extremely accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6mm_PPC

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6mm_PPC.htm

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/609443/site_id/1#import

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aasttopriflecar.htm
 
22lr,

Sarco lists both '03 type and 03A3 triger guards and milled floor plates for the '03s last I looked.

They list in their "Shotgun News" ads everything from brass buttstock cleaning kits, rubber butt boots for grenade launching, breass stripper clips to original and new wood to new GI Barrels and everything in between.

I have not been to their website at
www.sarcoinc.com
but their print adds show what you want.

The phone # is: 908-647-3800
M-F 8AM to 4:15 PM

OP,

Go hang out at some ranges and see what blows your skirts up. Try to get some hands on.

The internet is not the be all and end all of advice. 100,000,000 folks that each think they are the Ann Landers of whatever topic you ask about.....except me of course. ;-)

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
I'm back to thinking about the .223 again.

Right now it would be fine. I don't get much time on the rifle range so I'm not a very good shot with a rifle. I could share ammo with my AR15 (i.e. save storage space). It is relatively inexpensive so I could get a lot more practice. I'm not that accurate so for now 1-200yrds is more than enough.

However, getting something I won't outgrow as I get better is a big deal. Eventually, I'd like to be shooting long-distance (800-1000 yards). However, I don't know how long it would take me to get there. It seems the consensous (here and in other threads) is .223 in the right weights is more than fine out to 600 yards. How long would the average person take to go from little to no skill to decent at 600 yards?

What I'm thinking is if it may be as little as 2-4 years before I'd be ready to move beyond 600 yards, I want a gun at the get go that will let me shoot beyond 600 yards. However, if it is likely to be more (and it probably is), the cheaper practice (and thus, shorter time to become good) may be worth going with the .223 now and then replacing it/adding to it later.

Ack, decisions, decisions.
 
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