I think it is time for a bolt rifle again

[dagger dog]

It's real hard to make a choice with so many quality rifles out there.Then you're strapped with the chore of caliber selection.

The .223 Remington in any good barrel action combo,is a wise choice for the starting rifle, it is on par with any other cartridge in the .22 centerfire class.You can load it with 40gr Varmint style bullets and be good to 300, yds then if the barrel has the correct twist you can go all the way up to the 80gr&up for 600 yds and farther.

Then the .30 cal comes up, not to many Varmint style hyper velocity bullets designed for these but some of the 125gr ballistic tip loadings in .308 Winchester are quite flat and super fast out to 300yds , but then the .30 starts to really shine, lots of 1000yd extra long and heavy weight VLD type bullets available , the .308 Win. or the 7.62X51MM Nato or what ever you want to call it holds many records, hunter benchrest, service rifle and the lists goes on and on.

A choice of either caliber will give you the largest selection of off the shelf ammo . Then if you get into reloading well thats a whole different world.

I started shooting rifle in .308 Win. then graudated? to the .22 centerfires. If I knew then what I know now, it would have been different.

You choice of Howa and and CZ are tried and true , but don't over look the Savage,that little Mdl 25 in .223 with the heavy bbl, and 4shot box magazine is on nice peice. I can attest to the heavy sleeved bbl as I have its little brother the Mdl 40 in .22 hornet and it is a absolute tack driver with handloads and will shoot the factory ammo almost as well.

 

[skinewmexico]

It has taken my 14 year old son 3 F-Class matches at 500 yards to get scary competitive. If I'd load him some custom 223 ammo, he'd probably start scaring the winners. And there are people that shoot 223 at 1000. But if you're looking for a 1000 yard gun, get ready to drop some cash.

I'd still get a Savage Model 12 in 223 with a 1-7 twist, and when I started wanting to shoot past 600, I'd go out in the garage and screw a 6.5X47 Lapua or 6mmBR barrel on it. Set you back about $300 for a new stainless barrel.

 

[chaim]

OK, now I am strongly leaning towards the .223 (not even one of my original choices). I suspect it will take me a while to outgrow the caliber. Even when I do "graduate" to longer ranges and larger calibers, it would be nice to have the less expensive .223 to shoot as well. Being less expensive, it will allow me a lot more practice than even the .308 (the next least expensive caliber) so I should get better faster (and being less expensive, by the time I'm good enough to "need" .308/.270/6.5x55 the ammo savings should probably make up the price of a new rifle).


For the rifles, unless someone can give me a strong argument for the CZ over the Savage or Howa, I think I'm leaning towards a Savage or Howa. Both have a reputation for being accurate, both are significantly less expensive than the CZ for a similar rifle. The Savage has the advantage of being made in the US, but I like both rifles so it is back and forth which way to go. A Remington is a dark horse- a good gun, but significantly more money than a comparable Savage or Howa.

I definitely like what I see in the Savage 25. It is relatively inexpensive, and the features make it a great value (and probably an accurate gun). One big advantage over all the others is the built-in Weaver style scope base (one less thing to buy or have to install). Not being able to rebarrel isn't an issue as I doubt I'd ever do that- when I'm ready for something more powerful I'd probably also want the .223 around for cheaper practice (kind of like my owning two full-sized 9mms even though for self defense purposes I usually go with a .45ACP or .40S&W, especially in a full-sized pistol).

Some of the 12 series Savage rifles are in consideration, but they are significantly more expensive than the Savage 25. Other than easily being able to rebarrel the rifle, are there any advantages. Still, this puts me near Remington range for comparable rifles. Which is the better gun, the Savage 12 series or the various Remington 700 varmint rifles?

I like the look of the Savage 11BTH, but it does not have the varmint barrel (which may affect accuracy) and it is more expensive than the 25.

With the "varmint" rifles (presumably more accurate) in my price range, it is a long shot but I may also go with the standard Savage 11G (basic wood stocked rifle) or one of the 11 series with the polymer stock. The price is right on these, and they do have a reputation for accuracy.

In the Howas I'm most strongly considering the Varminter Supreme (non-thumbhole) or Thumhole Varminter Supreme. The prices are good, the heavy varmint barrel should help accuracy, and Howas seem to have a good reputation for accuracy anyway.

Next, I'm considering the Thumbhole Sporter. I like the laminated thumbhole stock, but otherwise it appears to be a "regular" Howa. No heavy barrel but Howas do have good reps for accuracy.

Last, is the regular Howas (maybe in the package since they seem to come with halfway decent scopes). These are primarily in the running due to price. They are good guns, but with little style to them, but form over function, right.

If I go Remington it will probably be the SPS Varmint or Tactical (price) or the VLS or VL SS Thumbhole (probably more than I want to spend).

Overall, unless I decide the others are good enough and go with price, the Savage 25 and Howa Varminters are my top choices. Which is number one and which number two, I'm really not sure.

In stock choices, I will be on a covered firing line. I don't hunt. So wood, polymer or laminated is purely a cost/style issue for me. That said, I think I prefer either a nice piece of wood or laminated. I don't know if I'd prefer regular or thumbhole laminated stocks- I guess I have to try to get a chance to try both, or at least I need to handle both (I do like the look of the thumbhole, but that is not the main consideration, handling is). Next would be a less nice wood stock and last would be polymer (though cost may bring me to polymer- with no practical reasons to go with something else, the cheaper cost stock would allow me more money to go towards a better gun).

 

[Snapping Twig]

FWIW, if you want to get 100% out of your range time, learn to reload.

Factory is pretty good, but for pennies on the dollar you can make premium ammo suited to your particular firearm.

Of the choices you have listed, the CZ is my choice, but my friend has a Savage 16 stainless in .270 that he likes, so you won't hurt yourself either way. The Savage can swap barrels easy enough, so that's something to think about.

Of the rounds you listed, I'd go for the .260 or the 7-08, I'd even look at a .280 because I like a 7mm and for a non magnum, it's pretty good.

6.5mm and 7mm bullets have a high BC, so they fly true at distance, combine that with less recoil and you have what you need for long range.

Untie yourself from stocking dealers and online ammo purchases - reload.

 

[dagger dog]

With the Mdl 45 Savage you're looking at a slim trim, light small action rifle, this action is not found on any of their other guns.It is a design that is a take off on their successful rim fire, the model 40 was the first in the concept and was originally going to be chambered for .223, but later they found the action to be a little to light for the pressures than can be developed in the 223, so they beefed up the action and the Mdl 45 was hatched.
Weights - scope for the non-thumbhole stock heavy bbl is around 7 1/4 lbs

The CZ 550 American is a full sized medium action rifle chambered in .223, it is a Mauser type action with the non rotating claw type, controled round feed extactor, this type is a design that is the grandaddy of modern bolt rifles and is a hard one to beat.
The weights are in the 8 lb class sans scope.

The full size Savages with the varmint or bull barrels with their cheapo poly stocks run in the 8 lb plus.

I own a Savage 12FV .223, added one piece Warne steel mount and Perma vertical split steel rings and a Burris 4.5X14 Fullfield II scope, and leather padded sling, and it blowed out the scales at 10 lbs.

If you add a Laminated stock pillar bedded you can add another 3 lbs.

These weights make the Mdl. 25 look awful enticing. Another plus with the Savage line is the ACCU Trigger, it's not a Timmney or Dayton, but it beats the heck out of their old style and is adjustable for pull weight.

 

[chaim]

FWIW, if you want to get 100% out of your range time, learn to reload.

Factory is pretty good, but for pennies on the dollar you can make premium ammo suited to your particular firearm.

I just bought some ammo for my existing rifles. Retail, the cheapest 30-30 I could find was $15, $8.99 for .223 (for my AR). Online it may be a little cheaper but not by much (I miss the days of $3.99 and $4.99 for 5.56/.223 ). Any caliber I go with I'll probably need to reload. However, I'm not a serious reloader where that is my hobby as much as shooting is. I reload for .38spl and .357mag, and still slightly over half the .357mag I shoot and probably 3/4 of my .38spl is factory, so factory prices will still matter. However, if I reload enough for the rifle, I guess they won't matter as much. So I guess that puts me back to the rifle more than the caliber- all the calibers on my list (especially .270, 6.5x55, .223 and .308) are pretty close so caliber may come down to what is available on the rifles I want when I go to buy (or order online).

 

[Master of Arms]

I know that you didn`t mention them but you should take a look at some of the savage models.

Savage has came a long way with their rifles in the past few years. They`ve won a few "Rifle of the Year" awards lately and there`s no debating the accuracy of a Savage.

This may get smashed by some people with plenty of money but I personally think that Savage rifles are very underestimated. They`ve been matched up against some of the best known rifles that are made and came out on top.

Just thought that you should at least consider them. It doesn`t matter what people think, what matters is when the trigger is pulled, the meat hits the ground. And with a Savage, that`s just what`ll happen.

Another prospect , although the price may not fit your budget, is some of the Ruger rifles.

 

[Wesson Smith]

You might want to check out the Savage 10 Predator Hunter. I just picked one up, and it's a sweet shooter, with the right glass.

 

[Mr_Pale_Horse]

Caliber: .257-7 millimeter (257 Roberts, 25-06, 243 Win, 6 Rem, 6.5x55, 6.5-06, 270 Win, 7mm08, 7x57, 280 Rem)

Gun: For paper punching and extended range sessions, choose a varmint or heavier weight barrel. Your calibers above will keep the recoil and report in the tolerable levels.

The CZ Varminter sounds like the best of what you mentioned. The 1500 and 798 have sporter(hunting) weight barrels intended for (carrying)hunting and although not poor in the accuracy department, are not as well suited to your stated use.

 

[chaim]

For paper punching and extended range sessions, choose a varmint or heavier weight barrel.

I've all but decided to go with a varminter barrel. The Howa Varminters, possibly CZ varminter, Savage 12 and 25 series varminters (not all the 12s), Savage 10FP (law enforcement series), and Remington SPS Varmint/Tactical all are in my price range. I will almost certainly go with one of these, though the low price of the "regular" Howas and Savages may change my mind. Both can be had under $400. At Dicks Sporting Goods they have the Savage packages for around $370 or $380 with a scope on it (from my reading it seems the Howa and Savage packages use some of the better cheap scopes)- it would give me a "starter package" where I could get out there now for a relatively low price while I could upgrade the optics, stock and possibly even the thin contour barrel as I go. However, the Savage varmint/law enforcement models and Rem SPS Varmint/Tactical that start with decent barrels would give me a better starting point for building up as I go (and I may not need to replace the barrel so it may be cheaper in the long run). And of course, as you say in the second half of your post, the heavier weight varmint/law enforcement models would mean less felt recoil and more range time (though if I go with a .223 that won't be much of a consideration).

 

[chaim]

OK, here is where I am now on the guns:

1) Savage 25 or one of the 12 series varmint guns. Is the $1-200 extra cost of the 12 series with similar features (laminated stock for instance) or similar cost with a cheap plastic stock worth it? I very much doubt that I'd rebarrel the gun, instead, if I get the .223 instead of another caliber I'll probably add the larger caliber and keep the .223 when I'm ready for longer distances.

2) The Savage 10FP. This is the law enforcement version of the Savage 10, basically a varmint/precision rifle. I doubt I'd outgrow it and the price is decent (similar to the Remington SPS Tactical/Varmint).

3) Remington SPS, either the Tactical or Varmint. I like the shorter barrel of the Tactical, and some of what I've read on other forums suggest the Tactical may shoot better (is there an advantage for the 20" barrel over the 24" barrel other than personal preference). The prices seem to be similar. Unless I find a screaming deal on the Varmint I think I'd lean to the Tactical.

4) The FN Patrol Rifle (PBR). From CDNN they have the barreled action for $399 and the stock for $99 so I could get the rifle for around $550-560 (with shipping and FFL fees) and a few minutes work (assuming they ship firearms to MD and have any left, both I'm not sure about). Some of the reviews I've seen online suggest the Remington SPS Tactical may be a better gun, the price is about the same, but the FN may have a better resale value should I sell it/trade it in later.

5) The Howa and CZ are still on the list, but they are falling fast. Out of these the Howa Varminter Supreme or Thumbhole Varminter would be most likely.

6) The dark horse candidates: The thin barrel, Howa or Savage packages. I'd get a starter package for right around $400 (+/- a little) that I could shoot with immediately and upgrade the stock, barrel and optics as I had the funds and as my skills demanded it.

The first three are pretty much tied at the moment.

 

[dagger dog]

The basic Savage poly stocks are just that BASIC, by opting for the laminate stock, you wind up with a standout good looking rig. Go to Dick's and handle one of the poly stocked Savage rifles and you'll see what I'm talking about, you can actually push the nose of the stock over to touch the barrel on the ones that are free floated thats the 12fv etc. The factory Savage laminate stock on the varmint 12's are pillar bedded and look identical to Boyds, which I think produces them for Savage and the are CLASSY.

I've shot the Remington PSS .223 the trigger didn't hold a candle to the stock Savage trigger, the weight of pull felt much higher, hard enough to pull some shots that I could call but this was just one rifle and may not be the norm, for I know the Rem. 700 does duty every where and has a solid rep. Plus you get a better Synthetic stock with the Rem.. It's not pillar bedded like the Laminate Savage stock though.

For over all out of the box dead stock rifle accuracy the Savage is hard to beat.

For later modification there is a lot more accuracy enhancements bbls, triggers, stocks, scope mounts ,etc made for Rem. 700 than any other rifle so thats another plus for Rem.

 

[bobernet]

For bench rest games, 223 and 308 give you the biggest variety of loads for plinking, accuracy, etc.

I love 270, but it's expensive to shoot and most of the ammo is geared toward hunters. For whatever reason, it never caught on with the accuracy crowd.

If you're planning to handload, pick what you like. The cost differences will be negligible in the long run.

 

[chaim]

OK, I made up my mind.

I was shopping around. A local dealer had the .308 Remington SPS Tactical for $650 and the .223 Tactical for $625. That is only a tad more than buying online, after shipping and FFL transfer fee are considered. They also had the Varmint, but for around the same price I figured I'd go with the Tactical. Further, the are willing to take a pistol in trade that I was planning on selling.

Well, I still wanted to see if I could find the Savage law enforcement or varminters in person to check them out. The closest Dicks had a Savage in .270 in the laminated thumbhole stock, but with the thin profile barrel- the stock felt great but I'd prefer the heavier barrel. The price was good though- about $550 with scope, rings and base (I could always replace the scope, rings and base with better quality later). It was a contender but I figured I'd see what else they had.

They did have the Remington SPS Varmint in .308 on display. It came with rings, scope and base and was marked at $549.99. The only drawback is it had the green stock.

I asked if they had another in the back with either the black stock or in .223.

So, I bought a Remington SPS Varmint in .223. It came with Leupold bases, Remington rings, and a Remington 4-10x40 scope. I figure I'll replace the rings and scope as I get better, but to start out, just shooting on a covered firing line, it should be OK (plus they were basically free). Unfortunately, it has the green stock, but I figure I'll probably replace it with a better stock in a year or two anyway (maybe with a laminated thumbhole stock if I can find one for this gun). It was priced at 549.99 (which is about the same as the cheapest I'd seen it on Gunbroker, and then I'd have to add in shipping and FFL fees) and it rung up as $529.99 (so I saved at least $75 over buying on Gunbroker after shipping and fees are added in). The sales person bore sighted the scope for me.

If I can, I'll take it to the range tomorrow, but I probably won't make it until Monday (I'm going to the pistol range sometime tomorrow with a friend who was just called up and is being deployed next week- he's being deployed so when he preferred going to the indoor pistol range over the outdoor rifle range I figure going with what he wants is the least I can do). Depending upon when we go to the pistol range I may try to get to the rifle range either before or after we go to the indoor range.

When I move up to .308/.270/6.5x55 I'll do it all over again, but I may go with the Savage then (maybe get a Savage in whatever caliber and have it re-barreled in 6.5x55). That way I can have one of each of my of what were my top choices this time.

 

[chaim]

Here is a photo: