I think my local gunsmith needs a serious remedial class on "DAO"
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sidheshooter
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Thanks for the above replies.
Just to be clear, there are two separate issues, IMNSHO. One is obvious: I was VERY specific about what I wanted (as in; I asked them to remove the single action notch, in addition to the other work)... that's a customer service issue and should be dealt with on that level.
The related issue (and the reason for my post) is that part of the vociferous counter-argument for failing to follow my instructions (written on the work order) was the 'smith in question's opinion that just bobbing the hammer was indeed "DAO". I am personally of the same opinion as Sam1911 above; that is to say, no it is not.
Unrelated, of course, is the issue of whether or not I am either a court-savvy, highly trained life-long firearms enthusiast or just a gun magazine-worshiping mall ninja for wanting a fall-back carry snubbie to be DAO. Opinions can and may vary there.
Fact remains: I stated what I wanted, agreed to the price, and then got what I thought was a bogus counter to a legitimate beef when the work was only half-done.
It seems that opinions on true DAO are more varied than I had thought on this forum, which surprises me a bit.
At any rate, thanks again for the replies!
Just to be clear, there are two separate issues, IMNSHO. One is obvious: I was VERY specific about what I wanted (as in; I asked them to remove the single action notch, in addition to the other work)... that's a customer service issue and should be dealt with on that level.
The related issue (and the reason for my post) is that part of the vociferous counter-argument for failing to follow my instructions (written on the work order) was the 'smith in question's opinion that just bobbing the hammer was indeed "DAO". I am personally of the same opinion as Sam1911 above; that is to say, no it is not.
Unrelated, of course, is the issue of whether or not I am either a court-savvy, highly trained life-long firearms enthusiast or just a gun magazine-worshiping mall ninja for wanting a fall-back carry snubbie to be DAO. Opinions can and may vary there.
Fact remains: I stated what I wanted, agreed to the price, and then got what I thought was a bogus counter to a legitimate beef when the work was only half-done.
It seems that opinions on true DAO are more varied than I had thought on this forum, which surprises me a bit.
At any rate, thanks again for the replies!
If I made a gun DAO, I wouldn't want the SA notch to be there either.
To me, grinding off the spur is a "bubba" mod.
When you buy a DAO from S&W or Ruger, there is no SA notch.
I'm thinking of sending a couple of my Rugers into Ruger and having them install DAO hammer assemblies... the rub is I want my parts back, and they won't send them back... I want to be able to go back and forth depending on my mood.
To me, grinding off the spur is a "bubba" mod.
When you buy a DAO from S&W or Ruger, there is no SA notch.
I'm thinking of sending a couple of my Rugers into Ruger and having them install DAO hammer assemblies... the rub is I want my parts back, and they won't send them back... I want to be able to go back and forth depending on my mood.
Deanimator
Member
And all the more so because just removing the spur is something that even a kid could do with a Dremel tool. If I wanted just the spur removed, I'd do it myself. If I wanted it converted to DAO, I'd take it to a gunsmith. I don't fool with trigger mechanisms. I just don't have the skills. There are plenty of unsafe guns floating around that got that way due to people who were either too ignorant or too stupid to admit as much.
Lovesbeer99
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There are quite a few assumptions in these replies. Why does everyone assume it was for defensive purposes? This could be a competition race gun.
Why all the opinions regarding if the notch should be removed for safety reasons. The questions was simply, does DOA only include removing the notch.
Leaving out my personal opinion of your option and choice, I'll state that DOA should remove the notch, even if you decide to leave the hammer spur. DOA means Double Action Only. There is no reason for the spur if you can't manually cock it, unless you want it to look factory, but even it you left the spur and removed the notch it would be DOA. Don't confuse spurless with DOA, it's not the same thing. I would ask for a rebate or some store credit and send it to a known smith.
There are many good shooters who vie for this function becuase if done properly the smith only needs to focus on 1 action to make sure it's perfect. A truely DOA action done by a great smith will have a better action that a single/double done by the same smith because the smith with have to focus on both actions and not just one. There is no need to cock the gun. You only pull the trigger when you want to shoot. This is a great option for many types of competitions. not every gun is designed for self defense. On the other hand this could also be a great option for self defense.
My trap gun, a Browning BT99 has no safety and when people ask why, this is how I respond. -
Cause it doesn't need 1 if used properly. the gun was designed to be loaded only while on the line when it's your turn to yell pull and shoot. If you stay within these parameters there is no need for a safety.
The same can be said for a DOA.
Why all the opinions regarding if the notch should be removed for safety reasons. The questions was simply, does DOA only include removing the notch.
Leaving out my personal opinion of your option and choice, I'll state that DOA should remove the notch, even if you decide to leave the hammer spur. DOA means Double Action Only. There is no reason for the spur if you can't manually cock it, unless you want it to look factory, but even it you left the spur and removed the notch it would be DOA. Don't confuse spurless with DOA, it's not the same thing. I would ask for a rebate or some store credit and send it to a known smith.
There are many good shooters who vie for this function becuase if done properly the smith only needs to focus on 1 action to make sure it's perfect. A truely DOA action done by a great smith will have a better action that a single/double done by the same smith because the smith with have to focus on both actions and not just one. There is no need to cock the gun. You only pull the trigger when you want to shoot. This is a great option for many types of competitions. not every gun is designed for self defense. On the other hand this could also be a great option for self defense.
My trap gun, a Browning BT99 has no safety and when people ask why, this is how I respond. -
Cause it doesn't need 1 if used properly. the gun was designed to be loaded only while on the line when it's your turn to yell pull and shoot. If you stay within these parameters there is no need for a safety.
The same can be said for a DOA.
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SharpsDressedMan
member
Since the REASON for the LAPD making their guns DAO was for a measure of safety, to NOT remove the SA notch does nothing to make it safer, or to make it DAO...the notch MUST be removed to make it DAO. Two reasons for leaving the SPUR on, even if DAO, would be to keep the mass of the hammer the same, to insure impact on the primers, and/or to keep the aesthetics of the gun intact....some people don' like the looks of the bobbed hammer.
I don't think I'd leave the spur on a DAO hammer...
Someone (me or anyone else!) might try to cock it and let go, thinking it will stay. I think whether or not the gun will fire in that situation without the trigger being held back is a matter of design.
I got a second hammer and bobbed it. Left the SA notch on there, but don't use it. The more I think about it, the more I think I'll grind it off since I still have the original hammer somewhere.
BTW, on a S&W, the "notch" is more of a ledge, so grinding does apply.
-Daizee
Someone (me or anyone else!) might try to cock it and let go, thinking it will stay. I think whether or not the gun will fire in that situation without the trigger being held back is a matter of design.
I got a second hammer and bobbed it. Left the SA notch on there, but don't use it. The more I think about it, the more I think I'll grind it off since I still have the original hammer somewhere.
BTW, on a S&W, the "notch" is more of a ledge, so grinding does apply.
-Daizee
David E
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I'm reminded of the "gunsmith" that was told to deactivate the grip safety on a friend's 1911. (this was way back when it was in vogue)
If you pointed it muzzle up, the grip safety fell out to the full distance of travel. It was immediately obvious that he merely bent that finger of the sear spring.
When questioned, he said, "oh, I did a couple other things, too....." but we couldn't find any of those "other things."
Musta been an ancient Chinese secret or something...
.
If you pointed it muzzle up, the grip safety fell out to the full distance of travel. It was immediately obvious that he merely bent that finger of the sear spring.
When questioned, he said, "oh, I did a couple other things, too....." but we couldn't find any of those "other things."
Musta been an ancient Chinese secret or something...
.
PotatoJudge
Member
DAO clearly, mechanically, involves removal of the single action notch on the hammer. Regardless of who is right, his customer service is severely lacking. For some reason this is much more common in the gun world, and it makes us look like a bunch of knuckleheaded old curmudgeons. Why can't your local gunsmith at least be as polite as the local cobbler or manager of a grocery store? I for one am getting tired of it.
C-grunt
Member
DAO means Double Action ONLY.
It does not mean Double Action with a hard to use single action. A DAO gun should not be able to be thumb cocked because then its not DAO.
It does not mean Double Action with a hard to use single action. A DAO gun should not be able to be thumb cocked because then its not DAO.
Personally, I just wouldnt be dumb enough to cock a revolver with a bobbed hammer, problem solved... function is the same, the notch will effect safety in no way whatsoever unless the shooter is attempting to cock the gun, then again, it they attempted to cock a DOA in the same manner and dropped the hammer for the lack of the notch, it would result in a discharge... seems removing the notch is potentially more dangerous than leaving it in place...
that said, I do understand it from the standpoint of competition shooting and the desire for a better action than available in the same firearm while still DA/SA,
otherwise, the only practical reason I would Bobb a hammer is to allow easier draw from the pocket or other carry area without the liablility of the hammer catching and causing the loss of a precious few moments.
I understand that it isn't "truly" DAO with the SA notch in place, but for all functional purposes of a responsible individual, it is DOA
that said, I do understand it from the standpoint of competition shooting and the desire for a better action than available in the same firearm while still DA/SA,
otherwise, the only practical reason I would Bobb a hammer is to allow easier draw from the pocket or other carry area without the liablility of the hammer catching and causing the loss of a precious few moments.
I understand that it isn't "truly" DAO with the SA notch in place, but for all functional purposes of a responsible individual, it is DOA
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Mike the Wolf said:
I think what we have here is not really a discussion of the meaning of DAO, but a person with a large ego and very specific ideas about what he wants. If he does not get exactly what he wants, he is ready to go to war over the issue.
Still, he is paying the bill, and the gunsmith should have done exactly as he wanted, as long as it did not create an unsafe condition. I hate to remember all the stupid things I did for no reason except that the customer wanted them done, and the customer is always right.
Jim
Still, he is paying the bill, and the gunsmith should have done exactly as he wanted, as long as it did not create an unsafe condition. I hate to remember all the stupid things I did for no reason except that the customer wanted them done, and the customer is always right.
Jim
SharpsDressedMan
member
We don't need to be antagonistic on this site. Opinions may differ, but but we don't need to insult others over it. Moderator?
sidheshooter
Member
That one made me laugh out loud, right there!
So how did you come to this conclusion about my ego issues, sherlock?
At any rate, if I was so sure that I was right (and yes, I'm *fairly* sure, I'll 'fess up to that; we all act upon what we believe is right) would I have bothered asking for other informed opinions?
I can honestly say that I wanted feedback here to double check my thoughts (you know, fact-checking before going to war and all that...).
"the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell
Rather than to be argumentive over removal of the SA notch VS not doing so. I would like a definitive explaination for this statement, as I seem to see some others agreeing to it, what exactly does the removal of the SA notch do to allow a better DA pull ? I want to understand this point - no BS - give me a sound reason.
As far as the original OP request to remove the notch and not getting what he asked for - I agree with him. He should have gotten what he asked to be done.
it's not so much the notch, it is the need for the trigger to engage the notch.
it no longer needs to be square, so there's no edge for the sear to have to roll over. ideally you'd smooth the whole surface so that the DA would "roll off"
it no longer needs to be square, so there's no edge for the sear to have to roll over. ideally you'd smooth the whole surface so that the DA would "roll off"
Some people (gunsmiths and otherwise) leave in the S.A. notch when they bob a hammer.
I am one of those that doesn't. When the cocking spur goes, so does the single action notch.
I know of two cases where someone managed to get the hammer cocked on a bobed-hammer revolver, and then slipped when they tried to lower it. In one case I removed the notch after a young policeman got bored while on a late-night stake out, and put a hole in the roof of his department's car.
The chief was not a happy camper.
At one time Smith & Wesson offered bobed hammers as a non-cataloged accessory. Those that I have examined did not still have the full-cock notch.
What others do is their business.
I am one of those that doesn't. When the cocking spur goes, so does the single action notch.
I know of two cases where someone managed to get the hammer cocked on a bobed-hammer revolver, and then slipped when they tried to lower it. In one case I removed the notch after a young policeman got bored while on a late-night stake out, and put a hole in the roof of his department's car.
The chief was not a happy camper.
At one time Smith & Wesson offered bobed hammers as a non-cataloged accessory. Those that I have examined did not still have the full-cock notch.
What others do is their business.
JWF III
Member
I'd say that's the key. It very well may have been a miscommunication between the two.
Customer- No need to get hot-headed about the service. (Not implying that you did. I wasn't there so I don't know what happened.)
Gunsmith- Bite the bullet, and do what the customer wants done. You'll have a satisfied customer that may return, or pass your name on to a friend. Either way you come out good. If the customer does neither, you're out a little time, but you did the right thing.
Wyman
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