I think my Saiga might not meet the 922r's!

[RemingtonFreak870]

!!! I was really excited yesterday when I found a 30 round clip...now after doing some reading I found out I might be a felon!!! My feelings of joy have gone 180. I DO NOT WANT TO GO TO PRISON!!! I am going to need to replace some Russian parts with U.S. ASAP! I will not install the 30 rounder. I think I need more U.S. parts before I put the big mag on. The mag is made in the U.S. according to the package if that makes a difference. For now I am only going to install the 10 round mag. I guess I will need to spend more money to make this work. I do not want an illegal gun!!! I wish gunstore owners were more knowledgeable and concerned with helping people stay compliant. Maybe they think they will lose the sale, instead I would have bought more to stay compliant. Plus, I cant buy guns from prison or after I go...what jerks. I wish they would have told me what to do to be legal...maybe they hate me or something.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: This sucks, what should I replace to make this legal? I'm a little freaked out by this 922r stuff, I am new to this and don't want to lose all my rights right as I am beginning to enjoy them. I mean, the BATF wont see this thread and come after me right? I mean for one honest mistake? If I keep the big mag off of it, will it stay legal until I can get compliance parts? The scope does not effect the 922r's, does it? Man, this is a bummer.

Edit: These gun forums have been a huge help btw...unless of course the BATF comes bursting in before I get a chance to fix my mistake. Thanks guys, if it weren't for you I might get arrested in a year with this gun...The sad thing is we responsible gun owners all care so much about these laws when the criminals are buying guns on the black market and don't care about the rules. Punish the innocent to scare the guilty...crummy.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, calm down. You're not going to jail.

The Saigas with now-available larger capacity magazines are a bit of a grey area as far as 922.R goes. The law essentially states that rifles lacking the requisite number (that's seven, I believe) US parts cannot take magazines over 10 rounds. However, the Saiga rifles haven't been modified, there are just larger mags available.

There are actually quite a few parts you can replace. Your BEST bet is to convert it to a standard pistol-grip configuration, as this gives you more options. The stock, grip, and handguards count as one part each. You can replace the trigger group, which I believe is three parts, and there are US made gas pistons and other internal pieces. Check places like TAPCO for US-made AK parts.

The simplest solution is to either just use the 10-round magazines, or send it off to an AK builder like Tromix for pistol-grip conversion.

 

[RemingtonFreak870]

Thanks I am feeling less freaked...You can understand the confusion for a younger gun owner.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Ah, yes, yes I can. The Section 922.R rules are utterly ridiculous. I don't think anyone has ever been prosecuted for a 922R violation in of itself; it's usually one of those things that they tack on to a larger offense. Don't worry, not gov't hit squad is going to kick down your door over this. It's an honest mistake.

A conversion is the best bet anyway. Instead of buying hard-to-find, forty dollar special thirty-round Saiga mags, you can use standard AK mags that are ten bucks a pop.

Tromix is your best bet for a conversion, but you can do it yourself, too, if you're handy (I'm not).

Their conversions run $385.00. Sad price to pay just to be legal, since that's mroe than the rifle itself cost, but that's the way things are these days.

 

[mons meg]

Yeah, but once he gets it back from Tony, it'll be an uber-ninja Saiga...

 

[Nightcrawler]

Oh yes. FBMG always has Tromix Saigas in stock. They are NICE. Some of the nicest AKs to be had, in my opinion.

 

[Manedwolf]

If $385 seems a bit steep, there are also other noted conversion smiths out there who'll do it for $100 less.

You can also save by having a smith only do the hardware conversion, and then put your own pistol grip on.

 

[rangerruck]

I am pretty sure, that if you have an American made mag, then you are ok. I know if you use standard ak mags from everywhere, then yes, you have to change out parts. So wait a minute for Correia to come along, I am sure he can clear this up, as he actually mfgrs some of the new hi cap mags.

 

[Hoppy590]

these are the parts according to the BATFE. you can have no more than 10 imported parts. im not saying you are in non compliance with 922 since the saiga is a wierd case, but just in case you do want to change something.

1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or
stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

the AK pattern doesnt have some of these parts. such as operating rods nor does the Saiga have a pistol grip. in order to make an AK legal its said you need 6 US parts, when in reality it that you need to replace 6 foriegn parts. the US made magazine counts as 3 im pretty sure! since you dont have a pistol grip i believe that counts as 1 ( lack of a foriegn part is just as good as its replacement) now if replace, the piston and say, the stock with US made parts i think youd be legal

 

[rbernie]

The law essentially states that rifles lacking the requisite number (that's seven, I believe) US parts cannot take magazines over 10 rounds.

I don't think that's what 922(r) really says. It says (emphasis mine):

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

I am not aware of the F Troop having restricted the Saiga's importation with a hi-cap magazine. The Saiga came with a 10rd-or-less magazine since that's what they could get imported prior to the expiration of the AWB. Now that the AWB is done for (momentarily), there would appear to be no restrictions on magazine capacity for the Saiga.

I dunno why the Saiga would even be mentioned vis-a-vis 922(r) unless somebody has specifically received notification from the BATFE that the Saiga cannot be imported with a magazine greater than ten rounds.

 

[LaEscopeta]

Can someone confirm a stock Saiga is imported with the following 922(r) parts only:

1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or
stampings
(2) Barrels

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)

(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers

(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks

(17) Forearm handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

(i.e. it does not have parts 3, 5, 8, and 16 from post #9 above?)

If the above list is correct, I think I can figure out what I need to do to get the 30 round rifle I want that is 922(r) complaint. (Regardless to weather it legally needs to be or not, I think I will play it safe and make it complaint.)

Thanks.

 

[markmc753]

My Saiga, stock, did not have parts 3, 5, 8, and 16

 

[MAKOwner]

It's not that you need to add a set number of US parts, it that you need 10 or under foreign parts total.

Unless the Saiga is significantly different from the standard AK as far as fire control group operation, it doesn't have #13, the Sear either, just the hammer, disconnector, and trigger correct? (don't have one, might pick one up, just asking).

I don't believe the trigger guard on an AK is counted as a "trigger housing" either.

This is the parts setup that a standard pistol gripped AK is accepted to have "officially" (different numbering than above obviously)

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Mounting blocks (trunnions)
(4) Muzzle attachments
(5) Bolts
(6) Bolt carriers
(7) Gas pistons
(8) Triggers
(9) Hammers
(10) Disconnectors
(11) Buttstocks
(12) Pistol grips
(13) Forearm handguards
(14) Magazine body
(15) Followers
(16) Floorplates

Since the Saiga already doesn't have the muzzle attachment or the pistol grip, I'd think that would leave 4 US parts you need to be using to reach 10 foriegn parts. Since the mag is 3 if US made, that would seem to me to leave one part to swap out. Is the hammer a standard AK hammer? If so that is probably the easiest to swap out. If not, I'd aim for the gas piston. You'd be stuck with US made mags though, looks like the conversion to pistol grip is required to get enough available US parts to use any mag uness someone makes US some other Saiga compatible US parts.

In the end, getting busted for parts count problems would have to be about like winning the super-mega lottery... It's so confusing (and US parts could be unlabeled, or foreign parts could be stamped US made) that it seems entirely unenforceable IMO. My guess is it only has much bearing on those trying to actually get rifles imported and converted for commercial sale, not so much (if at all) on end users... I think we the gun enthusiasts are the only ones that get all concerned with it, doesn't hurt to err on the side of caution though of course.

 

[Lonestar.45]

That's the problem with buying SKS's, Saigas, AK's, etc. and making them "tacticool" before knowing what you're getting in too. I see a lot of guys on different boards doing that, posting pictures up, etc. only to find out later maybe that wasn't such a smart thing to do. No real fault of your own, honest mistakes happen.

That said, I don't know of anyone busted for just 922 violations by themselves, but, I personally would not want to be the first either, and I wouldn't want to be showing up to ranges shooting a gun with obvious violations on it with LEOs and who knows who else shooting right beside you. If it were me I'd just make sure it's compliant from here on out and not worry about it.

 

[TX_Shooter]

Cool...I 2 looking to buy a Saiga and was worried about the 922r.

So; buying these parts from TROMIX and replacing the saiga oem parts w/ theirs is consider it being USA made parts?

 

[Harry Tuttle]

parts is parts

http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Parts.php
http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/
http://www.redstararms.com/index.htm?488.htm&1

 

[coltcollector]

Saiga is a Hunting Rifle

Hey fellas,
The Saiga without pistol grip doesn't fall under the 922 regulations because it has a "hunting purpose" so I don't see the problem with using whatever mags you find so long as you don't violate hunting laws about mag capacity. Just my 2 cents worth.
Colt

 

[LaEscopeta]

The Saiga without pistol grip doesn't fall under the 922 regulations because it has a "hunting purpose" so I don't see the problem with using whatever mags you find…

You all and I know it has a “hunting purpose”, but we are talking Federal Regulations. As stated in rbernie’s post there is section 925(d)(3) that talks about firearms that are “not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” Who determines if a firearm is or is not legally suitable for sporting purposes? The Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF.) As I understand it the director’s determination is final and can not be appealed. The Director determines a SPAS has no sporting and bingo, it can no longer be imported. As also stated above, Saiga rifles has not been determined one way or the other to have a sporting purpose. The determination on the SPASs was not retroactive and ones currently in the US when the determination was made could stay. But apparently this recent re-decision:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/atfruling_2006-2.pdf

on a bump fire stock for Ruger 10/22 rifles IS retroactive. If you brought these legally under ATFs previous decision, you are now a felon for owning (OK not ecxatly, but sort of.)

So regardless to weather I need to or not, I’m going to buy/make a 900(r) complaint 30 round Saiga. I’m guessing this is the legally safer course, and has the add benefit (to me) of being able to buy American.

I think you can find the above regulation here:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/index.htm

 

[1911JMB]

<But apparently this recent re-decision:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/inf...ing_2006-2.pdf

on a bump fire stock for Ruger 10/22 rifles IS retroactive. If you brought these legally under ATFs previous decision, you are now a felon for owning (OK not exactly, but sort of.)>

That nauseates me. I hate those bastards at the ATF. I won't break any laws, or advocate that anyone else should do so, but things like that make me take comfort in the fact that millions and millions of unregistered machine guns are in the hands of otherwise law abiding US citizens.