I want to be "that guy" with one CCW weapon...
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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Old Dog,
I am a full time LEO for 30 years, but have never competed. I have been shooting handguns for almost 50 years, so that should give you an idea of what my skill level and background are..
I carry a GLOCK 19 on duty, but a SIG 365 off duty.
There is no question in my mind that the SIG is the LESS CAPABLE weapon. It is harder for me to shoot with longer recovery times between shots.. With 11 rounds on board, I am not worried about the magazine capacity, but the shorter barrel means less burning time for the powder, so I expect lower velocity. I overcome that by using a top of the line defense load, FEDERAL HST 124 grain jhp.
Previously, I carried a GLOCK 42 in 380ACP and before that a WALTHER PPK in .32ACP. Prior to those, I carried a S&W J frame or CHARTER ARMS Undercover for almost 20 years, when off duty and not carrying my duty gun. The SIG is a harder gun to shoot, but is a major power upgrade from the GLOCK 42.
It is possible that someone can develop a "SHORT BARREL" load for the SIG and my other short barreled 9, a SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9, but what would it mean to me as a shooter. Greater recoil, muzzle blast and flash?
I have found that I can shoot the XD9 as well as the issue GLOCK 19 and it is more concealable, but not nearly as concealable as the SIG 365..
The short barrel of the SIG combined with the light weight and small grip area make the SIG a harder to control weapon than the GLOCK 19, even though it is not that much lighter.
When I shoot the SIG, I can easily tell the difference between the FEDERAL 115 grain fmj practice ammo and the SIG 124 grain jhp or FEDERAL 124 grain jhp HST load I carry for personal defense.
I suspect the American made ball ammo is loaded to lower velocity than the jhp ammo. Not surprising.
Recoil and the effect it has on my ability to control and shoot the SIG 365 is a major consideration. I am looking into alternative ammo selections.
On using multiple platforms, I would say that depends on the person.
In the last several weeks, I have shot the qualification drill my agency used before the present one, shooting a S&W model 15 .38 Special revolver, BERETTA 92D Brigadier in 9m.m. and BERETTA 96D VERTEC in .40 S&W and a .45 ACP STOEGER 8045 Cougar ( a BERETTA 8045 clone). I also shot a BERETTA .25ACP that was my wife's old gun, though I only shot a short range ( 10 yard ) course. Also, along with being an LEO, I am also a gun collector and informal shooter. Still, I usually shoot the same qualification or a variation of it depending on the gun and what I want to accomplish with it. It allows me to compare different guns, ammo and calibers.
With the exception of the .25ACP, I would feel well armed and full protected by any of these guns, even the .38 Special, although that would be my last choice. I think the real difference comes down to the individual person and their mindset.
I also work with a petite female agent who had too much trouble trying to conceal her midsize SIG pistol and requested that she be allowed to carry a SIG 365. She was allowed with the proviso, that she still had to shoot the standard qualification course and get a passing score. It is actually easier for her to shoot the SIG 365 that it is for me as her hand fits the gun better than mine.
Another officer I work with went with the .365 because like me, he can easily conceal it under casual clothes, although he carries inside the waistband.
Jim
Mosin77
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I think there are a lot of cops and soldiers who don’t have a great deal of interest in guns and basically handle them as little as possible. I can absolutely imagine issues in high stress circumstances when using different platforms.
I also suspect this is overblown when it comes to passionate civilian amateurs who can buy what they like and who have an interest in understanding how and why their guns operate as they do, and who are not asked to go into hostile situations every day. I don’t think the average gun-loving civilian will have to train for hours every week to successfully remember to take off the safety on his 1911.
I also suspect this is overblown when it comes to passionate civilian amateurs who can buy what they like and who have an interest in understanding how and why their guns operate as they do, and who are not asked to go into hostile situations every day. I don’t think the average gun-loving civilian will have to train for hours every week to successfully remember to take off the safety on his 1911.
Tallball
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"If you want an everyday useful EDC selection, I return to a G19, G26 paradigm belt gun and a decent pocket gun of 9mm, 38, 380 - with a digression to the 32 HR revolvers."
Same, although I sometimes might carry a medium-sized revolver on my belt instead of the G26. Often it's a pocket gun in one of the named calibers.
Same, although I sometimes might carry a medium-sized revolver on my belt instead of the G26. Often it's a pocket gun in one of the named calibers.
bdickens
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Mosin77
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Fair point that it can or has happened in competition, and I’ll be the first to say a system with no manual safety switch is the most foolproof. That said, as far as I can tell it’s the biggest real world platform accommodation that might seriously affect things in an SD encounter. Aside from something like a different holster retention method or some other fumble when quickly drawing from concealment. All of these can be dealt with through training, and I do think they’re overblown on forums. That said, every individual knows their own limitations. I’d rather carry three/four different guns depending on where I am and what I’m doing. And I’d almost err on the side of having a manual safety on all of them rather than giving it up in the name of manual of arms uniformity.
OP wants one CCW to do it all… he could do far worse than a Glock 19, carried IWB.
MOSIN77,
Over the past 40 years or so, I have seen a lot of "BLOWN" shots. At qualifications, my agency requires you to try to clear your gun when it jams before you can ask for a do-over. Many officers do not tap-rap-bang and do not get the do-over. I lost some points over the years because the safety holster my agency used to issue might "GRAB the GUN" when you tried to draw. It all depended how you stood.
I spoke with other officers that it happened to, so it is not just me.
We now have a new gun and new kydex holsters which work better for me, but not for other officers. I recently when to knife defense training and several female officers had trouble drawing their guns when moving. I suspect it was the placement of their holster, but I may be wrong. They were all using the appendix carry.
Every officer in my agency went through the conversion course to the new gun and holster, yet problems still exist. In my experience, training is rarely as thorough as needed and regular practice and refreshers are just too time consuming and inconvenient for management. They do not see the problem, so it does not exist. I do not believe that training in almost any beauracy will be sufficient. It is just the nature of the organization.
Experienced competitor do not usually have this problem because they shoot all the time, like every week as opposed to officers who shoot twice a year and are not interested in guns, even the one they carry.
Oh, remember the famous story of the U.S. ARMY sergent showing the new recruits how you can disable a loaded and ready to fire 1911 pistol by pushing against the muzzle to press the slide out of lock and GOT SHOT?
I have personally seen one firearms instructor shoot an "EMPTY" gun down range when I was qualifying and know of another who shot out a window in a conference room with an "EMPTY" gun he was demonstrating ot an officer.
My own confession, when I was posted overseas, I shot rarely during my first year out. I came back for a visit to my family who had my guns and went to the range with two favorites, a S&W 681 and COLT 1911 70 series.
Well, everything went fine till I tried to shoot the 1911. I raised the gun and it would not fire. I dropped the mag and reloaded, but when I tried to rack the slide, the gun was frozen solid, It took me a moment to remember "TO CHECK IF THE SAFETY WAS ON". It was my mistake, but after having carried GLOCKS, SIGS and BERETTA DAO pistols for 5 years, I made a mistake that could have cost me my life in an actual gunfight. For the record, my second and third guns that I purchased were COLT 1911's, so I was very familiar with them.
For that reason, I would never recommend a 1911 pistol for self defense to someone who is not a regular shooter or did not have a military background. If you have been trained and trained and will continue to train and shoot, it has advantages, no arguing that, but if you do not fall into the catergory of regular shooter or competitor, bad things can happen.
Just my experience.
Jim
Over the past 40 years or so, I have seen a lot of "BLOWN" shots. At qualifications, my agency requires you to try to clear your gun when it jams before you can ask for a do-over. Many officers do not tap-rap-bang and do not get the do-over. I lost some points over the years because the safety holster my agency used to issue might "GRAB the GUN" when you tried to draw. It all depended how you stood.
I spoke with other officers that it happened to, so it is not just me.
We now have a new gun and new kydex holsters which work better for me, but not for other officers. I recently when to knife defense training and several female officers had trouble drawing their guns when moving. I suspect it was the placement of their holster, but I may be wrong. They were all using the appendix carry.
Every officer in my agency went through the conversion course to the new gun and holster, yet problems still exist. In my experience, training is rarely as thorough as needed and regular practice and refreshers are just too time consuming and inconvenient for management. They do not see the problem, so it does not exist. I do not believe that training in almost any beauracy will be sufficient. It is just the nature of the organization.
Experienced competitor do not usually have this problem because they shoot all the time, like every week as opposed to officers who shoot twice a year and are not interested in guns, even the one they carry.
Oh, remember the famous story of the U.S. ARMY sergent showing the new recruits how you can disable a loaded and ready to fire 1911 pistol by pushing against the muzzle to press the slide out of lock and GOT SHOT?
I have personally seen one firearms instructor shoot an "EMPTY" gun down range when I was qualifying and know of another who shot out a window in a conference room with an "EMPTY" gun he was demonstrating ot an officer.
My own confession, when I was posted overseas, I shot rarely during my first year out. I came back for a visit to my family who had my guns and went to the range with two favorites, a S&W 681 and COLT 1911 70 series.
Well, everything went fine till I tried to shoot the 1911. I raised the gun and it would not fire. I dropped the mag and reloaded, but when I tried to rack the slide, the gun was frozen solid, It took me a moment to remember "TO CHECK IF THE SAFETY WAS ON". It was my mistake, but after having carried GLOCKS, SIGS and BERETTA DAO pistols for 5 years, I made a mistake that could have cost me my life in an actual gunfight. For the record, my second and third guns that I purchased were COLT 1911's, so I was very familiar with them.
For that reason, I would never recommend a 1911 pistol for self defense to someone who is not a regular shooter or did not have a military background. If you have been trained and trained and will continue to train and shoot, it has advantages, no arguing that, but if you do not fall into the catergory of regular shooter or competitor, bad things can happen.
Just my experience.
Jim
Average Joe
Member
I have multiple guns that I carry at different times. I feel I am proficient with all of them. Maybe you need more range time....
Not to be repetitive, but more square range time isn't truly sufficient. It is a Dunning-Kruger illusion when you fire a nice group under static, low stress circumstances. Golden has an excellent take on it.
Most people will never be in the extreme situation that the military or police encounter. Saying you feel comfortable doesn't feel compare to an empirical test.
Most people will never be in the extreme situation that the military or police encounter. Saying you feel comfortable doesn't feel compare to an empirical test.
1942bull
Member
@Trey Veston, carry the one that meets these criteria:
1. You shoot it the best.
2. Uses ammo sufficient to get the job done.
3. Is sized to enhance carrying rather than deter carrying.
My only carry gun is a Ruger Security 9 Compact pistol with a 3.42 inch barrel, 10+1capacity or 15+1 capacity. For deeper concealment I load a 10 round flat based mag. For non deep concealment situations I load a 15 round magazine. The only ammo I use is Federal HST 124 gr JHP. It is the gun I shotgun regularly at the range. I know how to handle for fast and accurate shooting because of the muscle memory one develops dying one gun to train and practice with.2. Uses ammo sufficient to get the job done.
3. Is sized to enhance carrying rather than deter carrying.
Tough call but in all honesty that's probably why I like the G23 so much, it's not the smallest, but if your goal is one gun to carry pretty much everywhere with the capability to do pretty much anything, the G23 has got to be one of the best options, if not the best. I like the 10mm too but like you the G29 is too chunky for me, the XDM might be better but I've always thought the XD/XDM pistols were a bit lacking overall and they have more recoil because the bore axis is higher. I would potentially nominate the G27, which will definitely carry better than the G23 (I pack a G27 around everywhere) and realistically it might be a great option too, less capacity but you can still attach a weapon light to it (TLR-6) and if you want more ammo you can pack around a G23 or G22 mag.
OP
OP
Trey Veston
Member
Ordered the Springfield Armory XD-M Elite OSP Compact 10mm. Shorter and thinner than the G29 with 11 rounds of 10mm. A KKM barrel at 4.5" would make it perfect, but I doubt we'll see those for years.
IF I like the SA, it will be my primary carry gun, with the P365 as my deep carry pistol.
IF I like the SA, it will be my primary carry gun, with the P365 as my deep carry pistol.
It's been 35yrs since 1911s were issued. Thats generation's of new shooters. You're really of the mindset that only us Grey haired folk can learn it?
I would like to be a single handgun fellow. However I carry my Glock 20 once the weather cools and my Glock 23 when shorts and T shirt weather come back. I also appendix carry my 642 on occasion but that's rare. I feel bouncing between Glocks doesn't affect my shooting that much. Going from manual safety to no safety seems like a bad idea for CCW if the adrenaline dump happens it's a bad time to forget your thumb safety is still on.
I like shooting all kinds of different guns. I do not like the idea of carrying a bunch of different ones, particularly ones that have different safety locations, different mag releases, etc. I've settled on the Shield Plus for almost all of my carry time, with a Ruger LCR for the occasional pocket carry.
Climb14er
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Have thought about the .. one gun only ... scenario a lot of times, as most others have also. Having had many classic guns over the last fifty years, and being a 1911 aficionado, house pistol, .45ACP, currently carrying Sig P365... great lightweight concealed carry piece... if I had to have one pistol ONLY.. It would be the venerable... COMPACT PERFECTION... Glock 19. Gold Dot 124+P JHP's and Buffalo Bore +P+ Penetrators in the West Backcountry. The Glock 19 has never missed a trigger pull and is accurate. That's what I like in an everyday carry pistol.
Tarosean,
No, I will disagree on that. ANYONE CAN LEARN TO USE THE SAFETY ON THE 1911, BUT IT TAKES TIME AND REPETITION WHICH NON GUN ENTHUSIASTS ARE NOT LIKELY TO EXPEND TIME ON. Compare it with using a GLOCK 19 or SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9. You draw the gun, you aim, you shoot, then you reholster. For the 1911, you must add two more steps, both of which you may have to do under highly stressful conditions. Older shooters who grew up on the 1911 will likely be familiar with it. The COLT made 1911 was the gold standard when I started shooting handguns, a long, long time ago, but the world has moved one.
Newer shooters will have to put the time and effort in to make it second nature. That is why I would NOT RECOMMEND the 1911 to new or inexperienced shooters.
I would even recommend a revolver to new shooters who are not going to put in the time to learn to shoot a semi-auto correctly. A S&W model 15 with FEDERAL HST makes a very capable defense gun with the same for action drill.
Also, exactly what advantage would a new or occasion shooter have in using a 1911 over a GLOCK or SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9?
On this, I am speaking from experience. I have not worked as a firearms instructor, but I have shown a number of people who were unfamiliar to shoot.
Jim
mcb
Member
I was with you until you recommended a revolver. As a long time revolver shooter including a lot of USPSA and IDPA competitive shooting revolvers I would not recommend a revolver to a new shooter, especially for CCW. They are find in single action to learn fundamentals of shooting but for self defense they fall short when you look at the time require to train with them. Everything with a revolver takes more practice to become as proficient with them as modern semi-auto like a Glock/XD/M&P. The capacity issue cannot be ignored either especially in light of how much harder a revolver is to reload under stress.
Mosin77
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I guess it is a question of backgrounds. I honestly can’t say for myself because I have, thank God, never been in a situation where I needed to fire my gun in self defense. But, my first handgun was a single action combloc surplus pistol, and my second was a 1911. I have fired many friends’ polystrikers, but have never owned one. For me, it’s just part of drawing the gun to flick off the safety, whether it has one or not. I even say to myself “safety off” as I draw and aim.
On the other hand if you were trained in, say, law enforcement in the ‘80s, to use a revolver, a safety may always feel like an add-on, that is likely to be forgotten in the heat of the moment? Still more true of a lot of folks who have grown up on Glocks?
I think it’s a serious issue and I am loathe to say “it wouldn’t be a problem for me,” but I really don’t think it would be. But the only way to find out is to live through a dangerous encounter…. Or maybe play some gun games.
On the other hand if you were trained in, say, law enforcement in the ‘80s, to use a revolver, a safety may always feel like an add-on, that is likely to be forgotten in the heat of the moment? Still more true of a lot of folks who have grown up on Glocks?
I think it’s a serious issue and I am loathe to say “it wouldn’t be a problem for me,” but I really don’t think it would be. But the only way to find out is to live through a dangerous encounter…. Or maybe play some gun games.
.308 Norma
Member
I can sure understand that. I don't carry a revolver anymore (I've "evolved" to a Glock G-19) but for me, pulling a revolver's hammer back is "just part of drawing the gun." I suppose that's because I've owned, and used DA/SA, or just SA revolvers since I was about 18 - well over 50 years. AND, it's the reason I won't own a DA only revolver - because I can see myself wasting precious seconds using my thumb to feel for the hammer on a DA only revolver if I ever really needed to fire a revolver in a hurry.
MCB,
We will have to agree to disagree on the revolver. The last person I trained to shoot had S&W 66. They were not interested in getting a gun or going shooting for sport. They had that gun and were now getting divorced. It was that gun or not learn to shoot. I started out with a couple of shots of .38 Special wadcutters using single action, then did all the rest in double action. We moved up after about 18 rounds to some 158 grain lead round nose. The increase in recoil did not effect their shooting, so next was REMINGTON 125 grain +P sjhp. This was more work for them, but after half a box, they were shooting well. Then we tried 110 grain .357 magnum. Only 1 shot was fired and she did not want to shoot another round of .357 magnum. We shot the rest of the box of +P and I gave her another box to take home. That is what she still uses.
I will take issue with your statement that that double action is more complicated and difficult that using a gun like the GLOCK. My agency issued double action only pistols for over 20 years. I found the BERETTA DOA pistol more accurate than the GLOCK 17 I had been carrying by a considerable margin. I shot it out to 100 yards just to see if I could do it and I did.
Given a choice of what to carry, an experienced shooter will almost always pick a semi-auto, but new shooters may already have a revolver, so why make life difficult. It is much better to be armed with a mid size .38 Special with a 4 inch barrel than have that person wait around to get training after they feel like buying the gun you recommend. Also, some people just feel more comfortable with a revolver. We are not talking about competitors, but usually people who are for the most part non-shooters.
Jim
We will have to agree to disagree on the revolver. The last person I trained to shoot had S&W 66. They were not interested in getting a gun or going shooting for sport. They had that gun and were now getting divorced. It was that gun or not learn to shoot. I started out with a couple of shots of .38 Special wadcutters using single action, then did all the rest in double action. We moved up after about 18 rounds to some 158 grain lead round nose. The increase in recoil did not effect their shooting, so next was REMINGTON 125 grain +P sjhp. This was more work for them, but after half a box, they were shooting well. Then we tried 110 grain .357 magnum. Only 1 shot was fired and she did not want to shoot another round of .357 magnum. We shot the rest of the box of +P and I gave her another box to take home. That is what she still uses.
I will take issue with your statement that that double action is more complicated and difficult that using a gun like the GLOCK. My agency issued double action only pistols for over 20 years. I found the BERETTA DOA pistol more accurate than the GLOCK 17 I had been carrying by a considerable margin. I shot it out to 100 yards just to see if I could do it and I did.
Given a choice of what to carry, an experienced shooter will almost always pick a semi-auto, but new shooters may already have a revolver, so why make life difficult. It is much better to be armed with a mid size .38 Special with a 4 inch barrel than have that person wait around to get training after they feel like buying the gun you recommend. Also, some people just feel more comfortable with a revolver. We are not talking about competitors, but usually people who are for the most part non-shooters.
Jim
Styx
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Might not be the case here, but I'd say that the overwhelming of non "gun nut" Americans only carry or have one handgun. I could get buy just fine with only one, and probably would be even more proficient if I put all my energy and training into on gun. It's just that I like guns too much and do not want to.
I agree with the OP. @Trey Veston you will get lots of push back from others who love, own, collect, and carry a plothera of different guns. You'll also get push back from those who switch EDCs everytime the newer smaller, and higher capacity lastest/greatest comes out. Even still and even if they can't or won't admit it, you have a valid point.
mcb
Member
I would argue the person in the first paragraph is a barely proficient shooter and far from ready to deal with the stress of a self defense shooting let alone the stress of competition.
Once you get beyond safe gun handling skills and basic marksmanship every hour spend in self-defense training with a modern semi-auto handgun will produce higher levels of proficiency compared to the same amount of time spent with a revolver and in most situations the revolver brings no technical advantage compared to the semi-auto. I have taught a lot of new shooters as I ran the new shooter orientation for my clubs USPSA matches several times a summer. Despite the moderately simpler manual of arms for a revolver most new shooter in my experience pick up the motor skills of the semi-auto faster than a revolver.
I am a huge revolver fan, carry, hunt, and compete with revolvers and yet I am under no delusion that it is technically the better firearm especially for those with minimal training. Ideally you want to be so proficient with your chosen firearm that in a defense situation it take minimal conscious brain power to do basic things like draw, aim, fire, shoot weak-hand only, reload, or malfunction clearing. This way you conscious brain is free to figure out how to survive the situation and the use of the firearms is second nature requiring no conscious effort. You achieve that level of proficiency with a semi-auto quicker than a revolver especial the later end of that skill list.
As with all thing there are exceptions but I speak in generalities, so YMMV.
Styx
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That has not been my experience at all especially when and if a malfunctions occur (which are more likely to occur with semiautos). Matter of fact I've personally seen more newer shooters that I taught to shoot for the first time as well as me just watching others at the range struggle more and have a higher learning curve with semiautos vs revolvers.
Like you said though, YMMV...
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