I would never run toward the sound of gunfire.

[Prince Yamato]

I think if I knew my chances of survival were less than 50% (or basically that I was going to die) and I had the opportunity, I would run towards the gunman with my gun drawn and open fire. I'm pretty sure that it would be a psychological shock for the gunman too. Your other option is either wait until he reloads or wait until he's shooting at someone else. Yes, those are the tactical decisions, but would you really want the extinguishing of an innocent someone's life to be part of your "defensive" tactic? For all the bravado you see on this forum with people saying, "well if I had my gun..." it's really ironic the number of you saying, "I'd run no matter what." What good is a CCW if you're not going to use it?

The way I look at it is that we have a moral obligation to help those in need. That includes putting your life on the line when it is feasibly possible to save another's life. (ex, you know you're a good enough shot to hit the assailant at 15 yards and you have a clear shot... you should take the shot). We all talk about how we need CCW on campus and then we say, "well, I'd run". Forget that, I say plant your feet and shoot.

 

[ilbob]

Forget that, I say plant your feet and shoot.

If you are close enough to do so, that is probably a good option.

The thread is not about being close to such a situation, but "running toward the sound of gunfire", implying you are not close by.

They are two radically different situations.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't know what all training most of you have had that are not actually involved in a security field such as being in active combat of the military, a police officer, etc. I am not in those fields either. However, I have had a variety of training over the years, paid for out of my own pocket, including some active shooter training.

Running towards gunfire is basically an active shooter response. It can be a very easy confrontation to lose. You stand out as the person running the wrong way which catches the shooter's attention if s/he is looking in your general direction when you appear on the scene. Things can be made worse if you have to respond into an area unfamiliar to you, such as going into a building you have not been in before. the shooter inside already knows the "lay of the land" and you don't. The shooter also has the advantage of having anyone be a target and you can only have the shooter as a target.

I don't claim to be an expert in active shooter response. I am only suggesting that from the instruction that I have had, active shooter response can involve some very complex situations for which you, as a non-professional civilian responder, may have few or no real advantages, in large part because you have poor knowledge of the situation.

 

[takhtakaal]

I have no choice. By my convictions, and by oath, I must.

Would I do so as to make myself an immediate sacrifice? Only if, by doing so, I could save lives. Otherwise, with no further threat towards anyone else, I would approach with as much stealth as possible.

 

[toopercentmlk]

Here in CA where typically only off duty cops and criminals daily carry, I was approached with an awkward situation. I was in our local mall in the early after noon when an apparent 5150, barring a rifle sized, guitar soft case was strolling the mall stores. I didn't alert my girlfriend at first, simply kept my eye on the guy and that was when I noticed him pacing on the upper level with us. We crossed paths and the look he had in his eyes was total emptiness, that is when I saw a mall security guard on the other side of the wing in full tactical gear... minus a firearm; I retrieved my glock from my car and tucked it away on my person. When I got back the guy was peering over the ledge, holding out his arms in a line of sight fashion and it really seemed as if he was plotting his angle of attack. I called mall security on my cell phone to report the suspicious character only to have them tell me that they are aware and will have someone check his bag. I sat tight and pretended to shop at a store on the same level maybe 50 yards from him. Nothing happened, I called again and they said nothing was in his bag and they asked him to leave. I don't know what would have went through my head if he pulled a rifle out and started hunting for high schoolers, all I know is that an armed citizen I had a moral obligation, not legal, to protect the lives of others. I hope someone else would've done the same.

 

[toopercentmlk]

This incident happened just months after a previous mall shooting occured, resulting in an off duty cop taking the guy out. I forget where exactly this was, I'm sure someone knows.

 

[bsf]

How does the saying go? "Discretion is the better part of valor", right?

Consider that you are armed only with a handgun with a magazine or two, you're not wearing any armor, and you have no back-up. Generally this is the case with a civilian CCWer. Is it wise to dash into a situation possibly involving an armored assailant with a rifle or shotgun, who may be carrying hundreds of rounds? Perhaps there are two, or even three shooters?

There are just too many unknowns, you're alone, with only a handgun and no armor, you've got a terribly weak hand. I recommend you run away. I know I would if I was off-duty.

On-duty, I'll go in. Carefully, though. Wearing armor and with a rifle, radio, a few friends, and a bit of information about the shooter or shooters from 911 callers. I definitely don't need the area clogged with "fat, slow and (moderately) untrained" but well-meaning civilians who have pistols and are hard to distinguish from the bad guy in a split-second, either.

Quote:
sadly for those who might be in peril, by the time you get there it is almost always over.

Probably true. I'll be the first to admit that people are responsible for their own defense. I'll do my best to help, but I can't save the world.


Quote:
No offense meant, but I think it could get you shot by the police.

Exactly right. If we are going into a situation in which there is a bad guy with a gun, then we see a guy with a gun, he'll be treated like a bad guy. We can't afford to make any other assumption.

If the guy obeys verbal commands and ends up cuffed, now we have baggage and we have to go back out to drop him off before we can go back in and continue clearing. So even if you don't get shot you really slow us down.

You have alluded to being LE and thrown some statements out there. Ok, let us assume you are LE. I would like one LEO’s personal views on this. Under what circumstances would you support armed non-LE engaging a shooter or shooters. Also, do you support or oppose liberal concealed carry laws? No need to provide any information you do not want broadcast to the masses concerning interaction between LE and armed “non-BG’s”.

 

[1911 guy]

Depends entirely on the situation.

If I'm surrounded by people I don't know or care about, I herd me and mine to the closest safety. Engage only if the threat is between us and said safety.

Around people I do know or care about, that changes things drasctically. I'll go to the fight for my family and a few friends. Sure, I put myself in danger by doing so. However, these are my family and friends.

 

[PavePusher]

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

If you are not willing to sacrifice (yourself) for your society, do not expect your society to sacrifice for you.

Citizens try to give more to their community than they take. Those who do the opposite are merely over-evolved parasites, causing rot of the body politic.

(Sorry, channeling Heinlein and Pournelle tonight...)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If you are not willing to sacrifice (yourself) for your society, do not expect your society to sacrifice for you.

So since society has already demonstrated it is not willing to sacrifice itself for me, are you saying that I am entitled to not have to sacrifice myself for society? I am fairly certain society is parasitic.

I don't know what would have went through my head if he pulled a rifle out and started hunting for high schoolers, all I know is that an armed citizen I had a moral obligation, not legal, to protect the lives of others. I hope someone else would've done the same.

And yet you didn't actually do anything to warn the other patrons in the mall about the suspicious man did you? You called mall security and they basically blew you off. Interesting. You felt strongly enough about this that you went and got your own gun out of your vehicle, but didn't bother to call the police. Interesting.

Did you leave your girlfriend with the car, out of harm's way while you went back in and prepared for battle with the suspicious guy?

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant Sabre
How does the saying go? "Discretion is the better part of valor", right?

Consider that you are armed only with a handgun with a magazine or two, you're not wearing any armor, and you have no back-up. Generally this is the case with a civilian CCWer. Is it wise to dash into a situation possibly involving an armored assailant with a rifle or shotgun, who may be carrying hundreds of rounds? Perhaps there are two, or even three shooters?

There are just too many unknowns, you're alone, with only a handgun and no armor, you've got a terribly weak hand. I recommend you run away. I know I would if I was off-duty.

On-duty, I'll go in. Carefully, though. Wearing armor and with a rifle, radio, a few friends, and a bit of information about the shooter or shooters from 911 callers. I definitely don't need the area clogged with "fat, slow and (moderately) untrained" but well-meaning civilians who have pistols and are hard to distinguish from the bad guy in a split-second, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergeant Sabre
Quote:
Quote:
sadly for those who might be in peril, by the time you get there it is almost always over.

Probably true. I'll be the first to admit that people are responsible for their own defense. I'll do my best to help, but I can't save the world.


Quote:
No offense meant, but I think it could get you shot by the police.

Exactly right. If we are going into a situation in which there is a bad guy with a gun, then we see a guy with a gun, he'll be treated like a bad guy. We can't afford to make any other assumption.

If the guy obeys verbal commands and ends up cuffed, now we have baggage and we have to go back out to drop him off before we can go back in and continue clearing. So even if you don't get shot you really slow us down.

You have alluded to being LE and thrown some statements out there. Ok, let us assume you are LE. I would like one LEO’s personal views on this. Under what circumstances would you support armed non-LE engaging a shooter or shooters. Also, do you support or oppose liberal concealed carry laws? No need to provide any information you do not want broadcast to the masses concerning interaction between LE and armed “non-BG’s”.

This question wasn't directed at me, but here's my response as a police officer. I support an armed non-LE engaging an active shooter, when he is properly armed, properly trained, and has the proper mind set. And, of course is in the right place at the right time. My only concern is that you may be mistaken by responding officers as a target.

As far as concealed carry laws go? How did we come to this?? In my opinion any law abiding person should be able to carry anywhere at any time. They have disarmed people in the places they need to be armed the most! banks, schools, etc. That is just crazy.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

I would never run toward the sound of gunfire.
I saw this posted by a forum member and wondered how many of you feel the same way.

I carry a gun everywhere I go, usually my head's on swivel.

I'm fat, slow and (moderately) untrained but, I'm no coward.

I would run to the sound of gunfire.

I don't think I'm the mall ninja. I don't think I'm the police. I just think that a decent human meets force with force.

What do you think?

And this is what separates you from a hero.

Not to be mean or callous, but that's the truth. However, in your defense your not trained....so it is the right thing to do in my mind.

You going out and getting murdered isn't a very good idea either.

The woman in CO who was the armed security guard, ran toward gunfire. (The fact that she was a former cop and trained obviously had a lot in her decision), and now she's a hero.

But if your not trained, or don't think it's the right thing, no one is looking down at your for not going toward the firing. That's what LEO's jobs are.

 

[cp1969]

"Training" is highly overrated.

Elmer Keith, to my knowledge, was never trained in gunfighting or combat tactics but you wouldn't want to have taken him on.

If you consider yourself capable of carrying a weapon, you go towards gunfire in a civilian situation. If you can't or won't do that, don't carry the gun.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

"Training" is highly overrated.

Elmer Keith, to my knowledge, was never trained in gunfighting or combat tactics but you wouldn't want to have taken him on.

If you consider yourself capable of carrying a weapon, you go towards gunfire in a civilian situation. If you can't or won't do that, don't carry the gun.

Uhmm....what?

Just because I have a set of pilot wings given to me, doesn't mean I'm going to try to land a jetliner.

 

[boredelmo]

I don't comprehend a lot of things on thr.

Everyone says "man if only one person was able to CCW on campus during ____ shooting many less would have died".

But those who do have CCW wouldn't intervene? Maybe the sentiment was that the people being shot at had CCW.

Who knows what would anyone do?

 

[BacSi67]

gunfire

Have always run towards gunfire as that was my job (medic). I would still do that because it is ingrained in me. Not carelessly though. BacSi

 

[BRASSM]

Run Forest Run.....

Do You think my feet are going to let me go intro a direction that may be potentially fatal.
I only have one person to worry about. ME....
I'm lean, fast, and pretty proficient with a sidearm.. And I intend to stay that way.

 

[SSN Vet]

Honestly, I don't know what I would do, next time. Neither do most folks. Those who believe they do are decieving themselves.

much wisdom in this statement....

Lord, give me the grace to do the right thing....and to know what that is.

I don't know about every situation...but I do know of two, where I definately am running towards the sound of gunfire (at least untill I figure out what's going on and can evaluate the situation)...1. my kids school & 2. our church.

I reached a transition point during my navy years, where I got fed up with feeling useless during all hands drills that went down when I didn't have a specific function (i.e. on watch or tasked with a specific job). In stead of standing around with my hands in my pockets waiting for somebody to task me to do something, I made it my practice to race straight to the scene (usually a simulated fire) and join the immidiate responders. When the drill sessions were over, I may have been soaked in sweat from head to to, but at least I felt good about myself.....and I knew I could don the oxygen breathing apparatus very quickly if I ever needed to do it for real.

Life is not a one size fits all affair....we all have to make our individual choices....especially when it comes to 'risk management'....

Keep this in mind though.....in a world filled with unknowns.....sometimes running towards the gun fire may prove safer than running away from it.

whatever choice we make, when we find yourself betwixt the hammer and tongs, God have mercy on us, that we live a life that is worth living, and that when our time has come, we die a death that is worthy of our best aspirations, as we only get to play that card once.

 

[cp1969]

Just because I have a set of pilot wings given to me, doesn't mean I'm going to try to land a jetliner.

If there's a type rate pilot available, there's no need for you to try.

OTOH, if you're a non-type rated pilot and the crew is incapacitated, you don't have much to lose by trying.

Understand the analogy?

Also, just because a person doesn't have the certificate doesn't mean they can't do the job. I used to shoot in cop/civilian shooting competitions. You would be amazed at the number of these "trained" personnel who can't hit a barn in a non-stressful situation.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

If there's a type rate pilot available, there's no need for you to try.

OTOH, if you're a non-type rated pilot and the crew is incapacitated, you don't have much to lose by trying.

Understand the analogy?

Also, just because a person doesn't have the certificate doesn't mean they can't do the job. I used to shoot in cop/civilian shooting competitions. You would be amazed at the number of these "trained" personnel who can't hit a barn in a non-stressful situation.

An airplane going down and you trying to fly it is the only viable option to save yourself.

You running toward gunfire, away from it, or staying put has more viable options then one to save yourself.

The problem with the analogy is because it is trying to compare the two.

What I was pointing was the fact that you said "Training is over-rated."

Training is NOT over-rated. Do you think that those in those in the Marines would have done as well in combat if they hadn't had training?

Lets take these 19 yr old kids from the cities who've never handled a weapon in their life and put them into combat without any training......how well do u think that would go?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

"Training" is highly overrated.

Right, cops, SWAT, military, doctors, medics, etc. receive so much of it and they are just flat out wasting their time.

Sounds like you haven't had much training. What justification do you have for the statement that training is overrated?

Elmer Keith, to my knowledge, was never trained in gunfighting or combat tactics but you wouldn't want to have taken him on.

I would not want to take him on either. You can't win against a ghost. With that said, he may not have had training, I don't know, but he had a huge amount of experience. How many CCW people either have training in or a huge amount of experience in active shooter situations? If you don't have training and don't have experience, then what is it you are bringing to the fight? Machismo and recklessness?

If you consider yourself capable of carrying a weapon, you go towards gunfire in a civilian situation. If you can't or won't do that, don't carry the gun.

Once again I will ask. What is it about carrying a gun that obligates a person to play Superman that doesn't obligate a person without a gun? Are those who carry knives also obligated to play Superman? What about those with martial arts training or who drive a car or truck? A car or truck certainly can be used as an effective weapon. I once saw my mom clobber a dog with her purse. So because she had a bag that can be used as a weapon, is she obligated to run toward gunfire?

What justification do you have in suggesting that because I won't play Superman for a stranger that I should not have a gun for self defense or defense of my family? That is just stupid.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

You have alluded to being LE and thrown some statements out there. Ok, let us assume you are LE. I would like one LEO’s personal views on this. Under what circumstances would you support armed non-LE engaging a shooter or shooters. Also, do you support or oppose liberal concealed carry laws? No need to provide any information you do not want broadcast to the masses concerning interaction between LE and armed “non-BG’s”.

Yes, I am the police.

I would agree with a civilian CCWer firing in the immediate defense of their life. So if an active shooter reveals himself in the CCWer's immediate vicinity, maybe they should shoot. Contrast that with hearing muffled shots on the other end of the shopping mall. A CCWer should not charge into the fray. There are too many unknowns and it causes too many problems. When I get there, how do I tell the good shooter from the bad shooter? What happens when TWO civilians with pistols charge in and come face-to-face with each other?

Civilian CCW is a wonderful thing. The police probably won't be able to help you in part because we're a few minutes away, at best, and you won't be able to call 911 until your incident is over. You need to take care of yourself. I'll help as much as I can.

As an aside, I've run into several CCWers while on-duty. No problems. Only one was carrying at the time, and he "forgot" to mention it (Michigan requires immediate disclosure) until I ran his license and brought the topic up. Instead of the pistol confiscation, $500 civil infraction, and loss of license, I let him go with a reminder that the law requires immediate disclosure.

 

[Treo]

What Seperates Me From A Hero

QUOTE: "And this is what separates you from a hero."

I've been a hero . I'm STILL not running to the sound of the guns

 

[cp1969]

Whatever. If you haven't got the guts to use your gun to defend innocent people, you shouldn't carry it.

 

[cp1969]

What justification do you have in suggesting that because I won't play Superman for a stranger that I should not have a gun for self defense or defense of my family? That is just stupid.

It may be. What you're advocating is just plain chicken.