identify an old S&W

[gun addict]

Okay, here's the deal, pics wont be up for awhile but meanwhile please help me identify this S&W old revolver

serial number on buttplate is 8423xx followed by the lanyard and WBP.

right side of the revolver marked with S&W trade mark, Made in USA and a stamp above it that says something resembling "not english"?!?!

that's pretty much it, alot of other proof marks and stamps too hard to make off on the barrel, it is chambered in .38/200 or .38 S&W

Thanks!

 

[Jim Watson]

It is a Smith & Wesson Military & Police provided to the British Army for WW II. There are a lot of fine little details that the collectors care about depending on the year and the contract.

The resembling part is "Not English Make" put on foreign guns used in Great Britain.

 

[woad_yurt]

Oops.

 

[SaxonPig]

The barrel will have the correct caliber stamped on it. The 38/200 and 38 S&W are essentially the same. If it says 38 S&W Special then it's in the common 38 Special caliber. Britain bought mostly 38 S&W guns with 5" barrels but some 38 Specials were also shipped over.

 

[Old Fuff]

Double check to be sure the letter "V" isn't on the butt preceeding the serial number. It may be on the other side of the lanyard loop.

Also I would expect "United States Property" stamped on the topstrap in front of the rear sight.

If there is no "V" it is a very early 38-200 Victory Model made in 1942 shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.

 

[gun addict]

wow, this just gets more and more interesting, thanks for the information so far guys! Yes the barrel is stamped 38 S&W CTG and on front of them are some marks resembling MP? Squiggly line thingy diamond?

i just checked again, definately no V before the serial number. I traded my Glock 17 for this S&W and a CZ52 and an Astra 400, i thought that went pretty well, 1 glock for all 3 guns

 

[Guillermo]

Old Fuff and Saxon Pig are always right there to answer questions about old Smiths.

It is fun when they have their rare disagreement.

 

[gun addict]

maybe i should break both their heart by cutting a few inches off the barrel and give it a basement nickle job

i hate to ask questions like this but giving the markings on this particular revolver, a very good barrel, good mechanical condition and 80% blueing what's the rough value on this piece

 

[Guillermo]

maybe i should break both their heart by cutting a few inches off the barrel and give it a basement nickle job

Dude...that isn't even a funny joke!!!

what's the rough value on this piece

I would be willing to bet that they are not going to offer a price wo pics. Partly that is so that they can evaluate condition but also...they like pics

 

[Jim K]

It is the S&W Military and Police Model of 1905, Fourth Change. As made on British or U.S. contract, it is also sometimes called the "pre-Victory" model. The Victory model came into being when normal numbering went past 999999; a prefix was needed, and "V" for Victory was chosen. The markings on the barrel are probably British commercial proof marks, put on when the gun was sold out of British army stores. Any gun to be sold on the market in Britain (even for export) has to be proofed (proved with an overcharge) before sale. The complete phrase on yours is "NOT ENGLISH MAKE", used prior to 1952 to warn the public that the gun of "inferior" foreign manufacture.

That gun was probably made in mid 1941.

In new condition, the gun could bring $1000 or more, but an average gun brings around $400. The military contract models will bring a little less than the commercial model for the same condition.

FWIW, with that serial number, it could not be a true Victory Model, since the Victory Model went only to V811xxx.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

I have no problem with disagreements with Saxon Pig because I'm always right...

In 1899 S&W started serial numbering their Military & Police .38 revolvers at #1, and on April 24, 1942 the original serial number series reached 999,999 and the machine that stamped the numbers could go no higher. So they started over at V 1, which is the reason I ask about the "V".

Production of the .38-200 revolver started in March, 1940 - well before the United States entered World War Two, and the revolvers were sold directly the the British and their allies and commonwealth countries until early in 1942 when the Lend Lease program took over, and Uncle Sam's Army was put in charge. Thereafter frames were stamped "United States Property" or "U.S. Property." This occured around serial number 800,000 (with no "V").

Standard barrel length was 5 inches, but early guns are found with 4, 5 and 6 inch lengths. After all, there was a war going on, and in 1942 we weren't winning,

"W.B." was Col. Waldemar S. Broberg, The U.S. Government Inspector in Charge. The "P" is a U.S. Army proof mark.

Why all this on a revolver going to England? Because the U.S. government was buying them and giving them to the British or whoever.

To add: Some of the marks stamped on the revolver are British (or whoever) military property stamps. Others are proof marks made when the gun was received, and last but not least, like Jim said, when it was sold - probably during the 1950's - and returned to the U.S. as surplus. They sold for as little as $16.00, and you can consider that to be an offer... sure.

 

[Guillermo]

I have no problem with disagreements with Saxon Pig because I'm always right

as we have only disagreed once I can attest to your almost always being right

 

[Old Fuff]

as we have only disagreed once I can attest to your almost always being right

Yes, but you were wrong then too.

 

[gun addict]

lol, keep arguing, this revolver is heading straight for the cutting board, gonna make meself a nice CCW revolver right?

all lame jokes aside here are the pics, the holster came with the gun and sure looks old enough. The serial number on the butt is very hard to read as the printing isnt exactly clear, does that make any sense? This is my first S&W revolver and i'm mostly a military rifle guy so thanks again for the assistence

 

[Guillermo]

Yes, but you were wrong then

no, but I was really happy that you were wrong. Allowed me to sell that pedestal that I kept you on. Bought a nice vintage Smith with it!

 

[Guillermo]

this revolver is heading straight for the cutting board, gonna make meself a nice CCW revolver right?

if you cut up that gun I will break out the voodoo doll and create in your conscious mind the constant image of Janet Reno dancing in a damp teddy

 

[gun addict]

now if i'm cruel enough to do the chop-chop on this particular revolver, i might just find that image of Janet Reno sexy....

how hard is it to find .38 S&W ammo? The guy i got the gun from gave me a box of .38 special which is obviously no help

 

[Old Fuff]

It appears to be correct in all details, including the finish and commercial stocks. That configuration with U.S. Property as well as British markings, in the condition it's in is valuable enough to sell for enough to buy a new Glock, and maybe then some. I think the holster is also original. Look it over for marks.

With absolutely no evidence to support it, I wonder if it might have originally gone to Canada.

It would cost you $50.00, but if it were mine I'd get an historical letter from Smith & Wesson and find out the exact details.

Now you need an SMLE #4 with U.S. Property stamps made by Savage at about the same time...

 

[Guillermo]

i might just find that image of Janet Reno sexy

you are as sick as they come

 

[Oro]

Yep, that's a nice original one and with a correct period UK style officer's holster.

That's worth probably $400 to $500 with the holster to the right buyer; usually the British service models (aka "UK Victories") go a bit lower than US ones as they are 1) much more common and 2) in a less-desirable caliber (.38 S&W), or often re-chambered. But that one is original. Even if the finish is a little challenged, it's blued like the early production instead of "Black Magic" finished (aka, Parkeried). That one is going to date to sometime in 1941 I would wager as already stated.

If that holster's too big for it, it's likely a Webley .455 holster and not for a .38. That holster is nice find, too.

 

[Old Fuff]

That one is going to date to sometime in 1941 I would wager as already stated.

I don't think so. The frame may date from 1941, but remember that frames were numbered before they were made into revolvers. What makes this revolver interesting is that it's a pre-Victory model, but inspected by Col. Broberg. I don't believe that U.S. Army inspection of .38-200 revolvers started until after Pearl Harbor.

The Lend Lease Act was passed in March, 1941, and subsequently Uncle Sam started sending various kinds of war material to England, but it was supposedly surplus that was already in U.S. military inventory.

This is why a hisrorical letter from Roy Jinks at Smith & Wesson might possibly reveal that newly purchased weapons were sent much earlier then previously believed, or that I'm right, and the gun really dates from sometime during early 1942.

 

[kanook]

in the last picture, in front of the trigger gaurd, the flash is covering up another mark. Does it look like a letter C with an arrow in it?

 

[kanook]

Never mind on my first question. Your Smith is Canadian. It has the Canadian proof next to the serial number. Please do not butcher that piece not as many were sent to Canada.

 

[Old Fuff]

Please do not butcher that piece not as many were sent to Canada.

I don't think the owner has any intention of doing any butchering...

That suggestion was some of Guillermo's dark humor. In truth he seriously objects to any such alterations.

 

[Guillermo]

That suggestion was some of Guillermo's dark humor

done blame it on me!!!!!!!!

gun addict

maybe i should break both their heart by cutting a few inches off the barrel and give it a basement nickle job

I never would have thought to butcher a fine old Smith (including bobbing the hammer)