Idle curiousity about 16" battleship guns

[uglymofo]

I'm in a wonderment about the amount of black powder it takes to throw one of those ~2700 lb. AP shells from a 16" gun, like on the Iowa-class BB's of WWII.

Does anyone know? I disremember it being about 150lb. a round, but I'd sure like to know fo' sho'.

Thank you.

 

[Bob R]

The amount of powder is variable. The amount of powder is adjusted depending on how far you want to throw the projectile.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_guns.htm

The bags of powder weigh 110 pounds each, and up to six were used at any one time, giving a range of 23 miles for the main guns.

http://www.ussmissouri.com/12.pdf

bob

 

[Detachment Charlie]

BOOOOOOOM

Bob R is most correct. The powder bags were raised into the mount by an elevator and hydraulically rammed home into breach. A Gunnersmate then wiped the breach face with a pad to clean the electric firing contact on the breach face. The breach (more like a bank vault door with huge interrupted threads) swung closed and it was time to rock & roll. The guns (actually naval rifles) could be fired automatically, tied into a fire control computer (originally an analog mother that was insanely complex) or manually. I had the honor to fire one of the 16" New Jersey guns manually. Below decks was a stand that held three brass pistyol grips and triggers, one for each of the guns in a selected mount. A Chief asked me, "Hey, you weant to shoot a Cadillac? They weigh as much as cost as much." Hot Damn!!! Grabbed one of those brass grips and with little thought to trigger control (like it might have mattered), I ripped off a 16" round.
Guys, that was back in `69-`69 and have never had a bigger rush firing any other gun, and I know I never will.
Being ashore as a member of a fire support and control squad calling these rounds in was a whole other story. To be honest, the Jersey was a valiant ship, but the big guns weren't all that accurate (hell, they didn't have to be). You'd call a shot and wait and pray they didn't hit you, or anything closer than 500 yards from you. After that, you'd call in adjustments until it was "close enough for government work," then it was "Fire for effect."
You could actually see the rounds coming in. They sounded like an old steam freight train -- a real roar. The round would hit, throw up a shower of dirt and trees, plow along for about 100 yds., then explode. It definitely got your attention -- the earth moved.
Man, they don't make `em like that any more.
Ah, to be young again.

 

[moa]

And to think the Japanese had 18 inch guns on at least two of their battleships during WWII.

 

[BigG]

I'm curious if it is actually BLACK powder that is used? I would have thought it was some kinda smokeless.

 

[Bob R]

While this article does not answer the black powder question, I thought it was a very good read. YMMV

http://www.lanl.gov/quarterly/pdfs/larq_7-03_explosives.pdf

bob

 

[Moparmike]

AFAIK, they still use that old analog computer. Maybe I am thinking of the Missouri. I heard that with that old analog computer, accounting for the movement of the other ship, rolling of the BB63, the movement of the BB63, that they could guarantee a hit in a 50sq yd area. But it may be my fuzzy memory too. I just know I would rather be on the firing end, with about 200db of ear protection.

 

[Orthonym]

Smokeless Powder,only.

Since about 1900. There's a little envelope of black powder on the end of each bag of smokeless, to help ignition. Boy did it help ignition in the Great USS Iowa Turret Explosion, Homosexual Scandal (not) and Cover-Up by Various Admirals and the NIS.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Not black powder.

It's a single-base nitrocellulose propellant not unlike the smokeless powder used in today's ammunition.

It was, I believe, largely manufactured by Du Pont.

The standard load for both the 16"/45 Mark 6 and the 16"/50 Mark 7 was a 2,700 pound "super heavy" armor piercing shell launched by anywhere from 320 pounds (reduced charge) to 660 pounds (full charge) of propellant.

The propellant was loaded in bags weighing 110 pounds each. At the end of each bag was a smaller pouch with an ignitor charge of black powder, probably no more than 10 ounces to each 110 pound bag.

Here's a WW II era picture showing a sailor at the powder hoist with one of the bags. This comes from www.warships1.com, an absolutely fantastic website.

 

[BigG]

Thanks for clarifying about the BP booster charge, guys. At $10 a pound that comes to $1,100 per 110# bag. $6,600 for a full charge of powder. Your tax dollars at work!

 

[enfield]

money WELL spent!

 

[2nd Amendment]

Last article I read, when the Missouri was still active, they did indeed still use that old analog comp because new machines, while smaller, offered no increase in accuracy which was in the 50yd range against an opposing moving trgt.

I also remember hearing stories long ago of the BBs dropping those shells down factory smokestacks at 15 miles. I'd write it off as tall tales but I heard it too many times from too many places.

 

[Hardtarget]

I was in Ala. a few years ago and went over to Mobile Bay to see the USS Alabama. If you've never been on a battle ship, its well worth the time to take an afternoon to tour the ship. Man...those are BIG guns!
Mark.

 

[bvmjethead]

The Wisconsin is about 20 miles from my home at Nauticus Museum in Norfolk, Va.

I've been on her and she's amazing.

I have great respect for all the men and women who have ever been in our armed forces.

Salute!

 

[geekWithA.45]

Iowa turret explosion....

The scoop on that was actually interesting, read it in Popular Mechanics (?IIRC) some years ago.

The propellent in the bags comes in the form of small chalk sticks. Part of the procedure at the time in some cases called for a partial last bag, which would be opened and emptied a measured amount using scoops.

Now, they had drop tested the bags when they where full, and properly packed, and they are perfectly safe in that state.

What they found during the drop tests after the Iowa was that when they emptied some amount of propellent from it, it disrupted the way the sticks where organized, and a very small fraction of them will detonate on impact in that case.

In the case of the Iowa, they ultimately figured the hydraulic ram set off a partial bag.

I'm not certain what they did to fix the problem, the article didn't say.

 

[seadog]

The powder used was very interesting. It is basically the same as any other rifle type smokeless powder except for each extruded piece is about 3/8 to 1/2 inch diameter and 21/2 to 3 inches long. I bet you need one heck of a powder measure

 

[c_yeager]

Thanks for clarifying about the BP booster charge, guys. At $10 a pound that comes to $1,100 per 110# bag. $6,600 for a full charge of powder. Your tax dollars at work!

Compare that to cruise missile.

 

[WheelMan]

I also remember hearing stories long ago of the BBs dropping those shells down factory smokestacks at 15 miles. I'd write it off as tall tales but I heard it too many times from too many places.

I'd say tall tale. Literally going down a smoke stack would require a mortor like trajectory. Those big naval rifles didn't elevate nearly enough for that.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Thanks for clarifying about the BP booster charge, guys. At $10 a pound that comes to $1,100 per 110# bag. $6,600 for a full charge of powder. Your tax dollars at work!"

Pretty damned cheap considering the price we would have paid had the United States LOST World War II, don't you think?

Oh, and the powder that was being fired through those big guns in the 1980s and early 1990s?

It was produced during World War II...

No new powder suitable for use in these weapons has been made since 1952.

 

[Langenator]

No new powder suitable for use in these weapons has been made since 1952.

Makes you wonder what kind of performance the guns would be capable of with the latest and greatest powder, assuming the breeches could handle it.

On another note of still using up things produced in WWII: DoD is still issuing Purple Hearts from the supply purchased in anticipation of the invasion of Japan.

 

[HankB]

Big guns CAN be accurate - you figure the relative tolerances in a large artillery piece, vs. the relative tolerances in the best .308 sniper rifle, and you might be surprised which is more "precise."

An old Navy gunner once told me that the crew chiefs of two gun turrets on a cruiser were debating which one of them was a better shot. While shelling some shore target, they decided to aim at a smokestack, to see who could hit it dead center from 6 or 8 miles away with a round from their 8" (?) guns.

So here we are, the ship is underway, rolling in the seas, the fire control (by Sperry?) is compensating . . . and each crew fires.

The holes made by the two rounds intersected.

And as a matter of interest . . . it's my understanding that there are no Federal legal restrictions on owning a fully functional 16" battleship gun, as it doesn't use fixed cartridges. (Be aware that any explosive-filled projectiles themselves would be illegal, so if you decide to add such a gun to your collection, you'll pretty much be limited to shooting "solids.")

 

[OEF_VET]

I believe HankB has answered all of the "what to use on zombies/bears/aliens/UN paratroopers/X-boxes" questions.

The answer: a 1,000,000 grain minie ball fired from a 16" gun. (Does Lee sell a mold for casting these yourself?)

Frank

 

[BigG]

Any idea of the MV/Energy stats for that puppy?

 

[TheOtherOne]

it's my understanding that there are no Federal legal restrictions on owning a fully functional 16" battleship gun, as it doesn't use fixed cartridges.

This is an outrage! The brady's had better get on this one because if they don't next thing you know we will have thugs knocking over 7-11's with those unrestricted battleship guns!

 

[DMK]

Big guns CAN be accurate - you figure the relative tolerances in a large artillery piece, vs. the relative tolerances in the best .308 sniper rifle, and you might be surprised which is more "precise."

They can be accurate when new, but you also have to factor in the rate and duration of fire these guns went through in combat. Shelling a beachhead can involve continuous fire for up to an hour. Imagine what that would do to your .308 barrel?

I was reading a story recently about the U.S. destroyers supporting the Inchon invasion during the Korean war. The 5" guns on these things had seen so much use during action during the end of WWII at Iwo Jima and Okinawa that they couldn't provide accurate fire past the beachhead anymore. A few of them got into real trouble when getting as close to the shore as they could to reduce the ranges.