IDPA match questions/EDC Options

[Hangingrock]

IDPA match questions

Out of curiosity if your EDC (everyday carry) is as an example a 9mm S&W Shield or equivalent size/caliber/capacity pistol or an example S&W J-frame or equivalent size revolver is that the weapon you utilize at an IDPA match?

Also do you carry it in the same manner as you would every day in regards to let’s say pocket carry and or holster type and position?

Is your clothing the same as you would normally wear or do you alter your wearing attire for the competitive aspect of the match?

Is the ammunition type employed in the match the same as you employ in the EDC (Self Defense) application?

 

[Sam1911]

I shoot in matches one of the guns I carry daily. But they aren't pocket autos or j frames.

Yes, same holsters. (pocket carry isn't legal for competition, so that's going to limit responses.)

I wear a variety of things on the street. I generally wear a standard set of match day clothes including a standard idpa style vest for competition. My daily wear clothes aren't terribly different from match day clothes.

Yes, ammo meets power floor, so it is equivalent to what I'd carry. Obviously not hollow points, but that's irrelevant.

 

[Hangingrock]

Sam1911, thank you for the reply. I used IDPA as a questioning reference as it replicates sequences of defensive usage of weapons. In the February/March 2017 issue of G&A Handguns an article "Dress Rehearsal Leave The Tactical Stuff At Home. Train As You Really Live" by Richard Nance. The point of the article was in different training venues individuals use other than their normal EDC during the course of training.

 

[jmorris]

I have shot matches with firearms I carry but not when they would have put me in a competitive disadvantage.

A lot like I wouldn't to things I have done to win competitions in a life threatening situation if they put me in a tactical disadvantage.

There are some pieces of equipment I use that are not legal in IDPA either, either because they are deemed unsafe (like a SOB holster, carrying a loaded pistol, etc) or not legal due to competitive advantage (more than 10 rounds, compensated, etc.)

 

[psyopspec]

IDPA is a gun game, and not tactical training for me. Would that I could use my EDC gun with its WML in my AIWB holster. The games disallow such things, and they have their reasons.

 

[Hangingrock]

jmooris, thank you for your reply. I've shot in local IDPA matches and witnessed deviation of rules. In my reply to Sam 1911, I referenced to the artical Train As You Really Live by Richard Nance. February/March 2017 issue of G&A Handguns with the valid opinion point of "Dress Rehearsal Leave The Tactical Stuff At Home". I believe Nance's article has merit. The previously said with out being argumentative to your view point.

 

[Hangingrock]

IDPA is a gun game, and not tactical training for me

I don't disagree with your view point but I've witnessed individuals that viewed it as training while gaming their participation with clothing and equipment they would not have or dress in in EDC.

 

[psyopspec]

I don't disagree with your view point but I've witnessed individuals that viewed it as training while gaming their participation with clothing and equipment they would not have or dress in in EDC.

To each their own. I know for me, conflating training with gaming makes both suboptimal, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone their own approach so long as it's safe.

 

[Sam1911]

I don't disagree with your view point but I've witnessed individuals that viewed it as training while gaming their participation with clothing and equipment they would not have or dress in in EDC.

Everyone brings their own mindset to IDPA (or USPSA or whatever) competition. A very few folks, usually those with limited experience with dynamic shooting of any kind, might mistakenly call it "tactical training." It isn't, and (almost) everyone realizes that.

A few folks use the IDPA matches as a sort of cheap and easy way to practice somewhat (more than static square-range) realistic shooting scenarios with their everyday carry gear. I used to shoot occasionally with a police shooting instructor who did that, and who would take several minutes to clear our shoot house -- even once practicing with handheld mirrors to surveil the next room before engaging targets. Most folks who start out doing this fairly quickly discover that IDPA is a lot of fun and it's more fun if you have a chance at winning, so... they soon move up into the more mainstream group.

"Most" folks who shoot IDPA (and probably USPSA) recognize it as a great way to develop speed and gun-handling skills, to practice engaging moving targets and to practice engaging targets while moving, clearing malfunctions, reloading, and all sorts of other useful shootist expertise in a way that's engaging and "sporty" enough to keep them coming back month after month. They aren't pretending that IDPA teaches you when to draw your gun, how to assess threats, how to de-escalate and avoid violence, how to differentiate cover from concealment, how to make lawful shoot/no-shoot decisions, or any of the other super-critical things that a true self-defense trainer should be teaching you. They just know that after a couple years of IDPA, they can draw quickly from a holster and make a smooth presentation and a couple clean shots on a challenging target in under a couple of seconds. And that's FAR more "practical" than what they did for so many years before, namely show up at a fixed firing range and running a box of 50 through their pistol, at a bullseye target, before putting it back in the box and driving home.

Then there's a small group of folks who will show up with the latest, greatest game winning 5" tactical auto, the perfect slick holster, a custom vest with the hems starched for stiffness, this season's latest colors of Salomon trail tuning shoes which are guaranteed to take five seconds of even a Grand Master's score, Rudy Project glasses, dry hands grip goo, and a poly jersey with their name and sponsors' logos all over it. You'll know if you fall into that group. [Billy Crystal]It is better to LOOK good than to SHOOT good...[/Billy Crystal]

I think there would be a much bigger disconnect for folks who pay for high quality self-defense training and then treat it like IDPA, by showing up with "match day" kit and treating every teaching scenario as a match course of fire.


I do think that almost all of us probalby would benefit from taking "off" one match a year, or maybe two, and shooting it totally in "street" kit. That can be very enlightening.

 

[Hangingrock]

I do think that almost all of us probalby would benefit from taking "off" one match a year, or maybe two, and shooting it totally in "street" kit. That can be very enlightening.

Thank You for your reply. Your quote is the way I see it. That's the way I participate "street" kit.

 

[strambo]

There is "training", "tactics" and "skill." Competition is not training and it isn't the place to learn or practice tactics (other than those that fit the competition rules.) That said, "skill" is an important part as well and the skills of gun handling and marksmanship developed in competition will also be there in a real-world shooting provided you can access them under stress.

Ideally, you would use your EDC gun and gear to develop the skill and correct neural pathways, but there is also pretty good carryover with similar skills. For example, when I (rarely) put on armor with a chest holster for military duty and draw an M9 (a gun I don't own) I'm very fast at it even though I don't practice with an M9 in a chest holster much.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I used IDPA as a questioning reference as it replicates sequences of defensive usage of weapons.

It really isn't a good foundation of discussion as it doesn't replicate "sequences of defensive usage of weapons" anymore than driving a F1 car replicates daily driving

The point of the article was in different training venues individuals use other than their normal EDC during the course of training.

The second weakness is that, as already pointed out, IDPA isn't training. It can be used to test the skills you've practiced, but other than teach you of your limitations to perform under pressure (time/competition), it really isn't meant to train the person taking part.

Part of the general confusion is demand of the market. Everyone wants to take classes to learn defensive skills, when what they really need is instruction in shooting skills. The result is a proliferation of schools/classes, bills as defensive shooting schools which really spend most of the time teaching students to competently shoot their guns. For classes like this, it really doesn't make much difference what gear you use.

In a real defensive handgun class, they teach gun fighting skills. For a class like that, you should use what you would normally carry, as you are likely to find the deficiencies in your personal choices.

To answer your questions.
I do shoot guns in IDPA that I normally carry and I carry them in holsters I normally use.

I don't pocket carry and I don't carry pocket pistols or J-frames except as backup guns. The smallest guns I carry and shoot in competition are the H&K P7, Kahr CW9 or a Springfield EMP; the largest are the S&W M&P9 or a SIG 220

While I wear a vest for competition, I normally wear a zip up hoodie or sportcoat on a normal day...I've even worn the hoodie in competition

 

[johnmcl]

I concur with Sam and 9mm.

I take a lot of training and I'm active in IDPA. IDPA is not training, but does help with weapon handling under (slight) pressure. In short, it can give insight into things like the ability to reload under pressure, shoot from cover, and engage multiple targets. All good there. In addition, one meets wonderful people in the process.

For me, IDPA means 1911s, leather holsters and mag carriers, mid power ammo, and a really bad Hawaiian shirt for a cover garment. In fact, the shirt is so bad that I was threatened with a Fashion PE...

 

[jmorris]

clothing and equipment they would not have or dress in in EDC.

In an environment they are only in on the weekends, shooting at things they never would need to defend themselves from. Doesn't matter much though they are still better off than they would be playing golf.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Sam and 9mm's are, as usually, on point.

IDPA is some of the best practice you can get for the cost of entry.
It is also a great place to test out that new Inside the waist band holster that you just got.

I shoot with a full size and occasionally my carry pistol. But my smallest carry gun is a Sig P239, and the full size is a 226. Same manual of arms and all that.

Shoot what you have, have fun, and become a better shooter while doing it. I do okay at local matches and the most I go out of my way for special gear was a fishing vest.

ETA: ...well, its a 5.11 tactical fishing vest... but its still at fishing vest.

 

[Hangingrock]

The second weakness is that, as already pointed out, IDPA isn't training. It can be used to test the skills you've practiced, but other than teach you of your limitations to perform under pressure (time/competition), it really isn't meant to train the person taking part.

Frist I don't view IDPA as (Training and I don't Game it either) But I have encountered individuals that do. I asked a set of questions to induce responses thus disscussion and also later on referenced and article by Richard Nance in G&A Handguns Feb/March 2017 issue. Since you have so much to say why haven't you entertained writing articles in firearms publications (Not meant to be snide or demeaning) just a question?

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I can't find that article. Would you post a link, please?

I think it may help with discussion.

 

[Hangingrock]

I can't find that article. Would you post a link, please?

I think it may help with discussion.

I subscribe to the print copy of the magazine thus I do not know if there is or is not a online link for the article.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Since you have so much to say why haven't you entertained writing articles in firearms publications (Not meant to be snide or demeaning) just a question?

I have...mostly evaluations of training for my prior employment. I have also taught on the subject of deployment of defensive force, conducted security inventory of homes, and developed response for terrorist attacks on court facilities.

Firearms publications is a dying income stream due to subscribers finding other sources of more timely information. While Nance has a fairly creditable background, he is constrained by the publishing guidelines of G&A, which I consider as creditable as Motortrend magazine

 

[JamieC]

I shoot IDPA fairly regularly. It's NOT tactical training, it IS a little bit closer to it than standing all squared up, shooting at a piece of paper with no time constraint. I always try to dress as I would on the street. IDPA allows me to practice my draw, target acquisition, shooting on the move, how to use cover, try to think things out while shooting. I do sometimes run afoul of the 'local' rules. I carry at about 3:30-4:00, sometimes they leave me alone, sometimes one of the ROs wants the holster moved to 3:00. Technically, wearing the holster where I want DOES break the 180* rule when I draw, tends to sweep the RO. IDPA rules say that the holster has to be behind a line at your hip and don't allow SOB holsters. To me, where I 'street carry' is legal, (according to the IDPA rules), at the same time, I understand the ROs concerns at a local match where they aren't always sure of the shooter and his/her abilities. Still, it's great fun and practice.

 

[Ghost In The Fog]

I very much enjoy IDPA and agree with all of you- it is different things to different people. I started off shooting my G34 in competitions but as I figured things out for myself, I only use my EDC G19. I dress just as I do everyday. I try to closely replicate competing as I carry. Sure I may lose a few tenths or seconds here or there to the young guys who have all of the race gear and fly when they move, but my points down are usually far less. The only thing I don't like at my LGC is they do not allow IWB holsters for IDPA. So, I put my OWB holster in the exact location that I carry in and make sure I have a good cover garment, usually a flannel shirt. I think it is all about muscle memory, repetition and training as you carry. You will only have your training to fall back on if SHTF. IDPA has been great for me. The addition of actually moving and thinking while shooting is not only fun, it is darned hard and humbling from shooting bullseyes while standing still to hopefully hitting the 0. Another interesting thing for me is I shoot my G19 far better than the 34 now. I don't shoot my factory EDC ammo but I shoot the same weight and grain reloads as my EDC so it is no surprise when refreshing my EDC ammo.
Only my $0.02 but it works for me.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The only thing I don't like at my LGC is they do not allow IWB holsters for IDPA. So,

That is a bit odd and very club specific. The Rule Book even mentions Safety Accommodations for IWB carry

The four nearby IDPA clubs all allow IWB carry.

 

[Ghost In The Fog]

That is a bit odd and very club specific. The Rule Book even mentions Safety Accommodations for IWB carry

The four nearby IDPA clubs all allow IWB carry.

It is club specific to our club and I have asked and this is what they refer me to below...

To shoot the IDPA match you will need the following:

• Eye protection (required)
• Ear protection (required)
• Pistol or revolver meeting IDPA equipment requirements (see note 1)
• Strong-side hip holster meeting IDPA equipment requirements
• Magazines, speedloaders or moonclips (see note 2)
• Double magazine pouch, single mag pouches, speedloader holders, or moonclip holders, as appropriate (see note 3)
• Sturdy gun belt fitting holster and magazine holder slots securely
• Cover garment: Vest, jacket, coat, long shirt, etc.
• Ammunition meeting the IDPA minimum power floor (see note 4)
• Range or gym bag to carry the above items.

And this below is from the IDPA rule book- they took away the "OR" portion and insist on the strong side hip holster only.

IDPA-approved holsters will be strong-side hip holsters or inside-the waistband holsters which cover the trigger guard and which have no cut-aways, drop, or offset, except that a limited amount of drop and offset is allowed for women. Holsters must be practical for all-day concealed-carry use. In a nutshell, IDPA requires "working" holsters, not competition holsters.


Whats weird about it is I am holster qualified at my club, which means I can walk right in to the firing line and draw from my IWB holster. Odd I know, but they say it is for safety. I am all in favor of safety first always, but I would prefer to be able to draw from IWB.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I actually understand their concern. Some shooter's muzzle awareness makes me wonder how they still have functioning hips and non-perforated buttocks.

I don't have the New Rule Book in front of me, but this was covered under the Old Rule Book in Section 2.2.1.1:

2.2.1 is the DQ for unsafe firearm handling (sweeping)
2.2.1.1 is the Exception for body and holster types

 

[jmorris]

Some shooter's muzzle awareness makes me wonder how they still have functioning hips and non-perforated buttocks.

It's redundant measures of safety that save their butt, in this case. Keep your finger off the trigger goes a long way in this case.

Also worth noting, as an RO, you should also be aware of where you are around the shooter. Many draws, will have the muzzle aimed behind the shooter as it clears the holster, why as an RO you want to be beside, not behind.