IDPA with a subcompact?

[TonyDedo]

The best advice I ever heard at a match was to "shoot fast, slow".

One of my first instructors always said, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast." Military phrase, I'd imagine. He was also a big fan of "if it ain't raining, we ain't training."

 

[9mmepiphany]

It will be slower to get the first shot on target

It is better to be accurate than fast and dead.

I've bolded the operative terms from my original post. If you are just as accurate, faster is always better.

Unless you have a vision impairment, open sights are almost twice as fast getting the first accurate shot on the target. It is faster to see the aligned sights superimposed over the target than to locate the appearance of the dot on the target

 

[9mmepiphany]

One of my first instructors always said, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

This is one of my training mantras also.

It is one of the reasons a shot timer is so important. When you are executing the technique correctly, it doesn't feel like you are moving very quickly

 

[Blackstone]

I've bolded the operative terms from my original post. If you are just as accurate, faster is always better.

Unless you have a vision impairment, open sights are almost twice as fast getting the first accurate shot on the target. It is faster to see the aligned sights superimposed over the target than to locate the appearance of the dot on the target

Surely with some repetitive training and proper indexing of the body, you can get a consistent draw out and pick up the dot faster? What are the benefits of dot over open sights?

 

[tuj]

Surely with some repetitive training and proper indexing of the body, you can get a consistent draw out and pick up the dot faster? What are the benefits of dot over open sights?

I think 9mmepiphany was talking about picking up the actual white dot on the front sight as opposed to a red-dot electronic sight. Red dots *are* faster, but not by that much. But there is a reason you will see them in the unlimited classes in games where they are allowed. C-more is a popular one to use.

 

[MrBorland]

The best advice I ever heard at a match was to "shoot fast, slow".

Better advice, IMO, is "move fast, shoot slow", particularly important for subcompact shooters.

Move Fast: Movement in a stage is under appreciated. In matches, up to half the time is spent moving, not shooting, so big chunks of time can be made up through efficient movement.

Shoot Slow: Shooting beyond your control costs additional time in the form of PDs, HNT, and FNs. Many shoot too fast to make up for slow/inefficient movement, but it usually results in a counterproductive double whammy.

 

[Sam1911]

Surely with some repetitive training and proper indexing of the body, you can get a consistent draw out and pick up the dot faster? What are the benefits of dot over open sights?

Personally, I don't think so. It is awfully hard to do a head-to-head comparison, though, as you'd need one person exactly equally skilled with both types. Or equally practiced at least.

Or you could check scores from a wide set of shooters using both types, but all other aspects of the guns used would have to be exactly equivalent, and as optics are only used in "Open" class, which allows a lot of other modifications like compensators, that's not practical.

Red dots are generally brighter on target, and good ones are parallax free, so there can be a slight benefit in not actually having to align the sights at all. But that's not a great benefit either if your technique is good, as the gun will align anyway as you present.

 

[tuj]

Quote:
Surely with some repetitive training and proper indexing of the body, you can get a consistent draw out and pick up the dot faster? What are the benefits of dot over open sights?
Personally, I don't think so. It is awfully hard to do a head-to-head comparison, though, as you'd need one person exactly equally skilled with both types. Or equally practiced at least.

From what I've seen of some of the masters like Brian Enos, they *do* shoot faster with their open class guns with dots on them, but not by that much. It's mostly their technique. Give them a duty rig and iron sights and they still will draw and shoot faster than us mortals.

But yes, the advantage of the red dot sight is that it is (the good ones anyway) parallax free, so there is nothing to align; put dot on target, pull trigger smoothly. With irons, your eyes must combine 3 distances (rear sight, front sight, and target) to get a sight picture. With a dot, there is only 1 distance (because the dot is projected in the sight at the same distance as the target), so alignment happens faster.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Surely with some repetitive training and proper indexing of the body, you can get a consistent draw out and pick up the dot faster? What are the benefits of dot over open sights?

Sorry for being slow to respond and thanks to the folks who tried to fill in while I was off-line.

Yes, you can train and get a good index coming out of the holster, this is one of the arguments for sticking with one platform, as it does take a different index due to the height of the sight above the bore.

The reddot sight requires a different technique that open sights, as you are looking at focusing on the target and pickup the dots appearance subconsciously to cue the press of the trigger...you don't look at the dot at all.

A highly skilled shooter does the same thing with open sights (no, this isn't point shooting) and for them (who already have great trigger control) the bigger issue is the floating dot...as opposed to the stable slide (which is used as a sighting plane in close engagements)

I was fortunate enough to have trained with a couple of shooters who were highly skilled with both open and red dot sights...they were there at the development...and they really could shoot just as well with either setup

Their take was that compensators and the weight of the total gun made a bigger difference on Open guns than the red dot. What the dot offered was ease of focus. It required a higher skill level to utilize them to their fullest benefit. However the red dot does offer advantages as your vision degrades with age

 

[Blackstone]

Oh I see. I read 9mm's response to TobyDedo's post which mentioned red dot combat pistols

 

[Ankeny]

Personally, I don't think so. It is awfully hard to do a head-to-head comparison, though, as you'd need one person exactly equally skilled with both types. Or equally practiced at least.

I have shot both iron sights and a dot quite a lot. I went to the dot because of aging eyeballs, and I really do prefer the dot for all around shooting.

As far as which is quicker to the first shot, it depends on the difficulty level of the shot. When I am shooting at say 7-10 yards, with the goal being a "COM" hit on a metric IPSC target, I have always been marginally faster with open sights because I can read the relationship of the slide/bore to the target face peripherally during the presentation. Move the target back 2-3 times that distance, and I'll get the A box hit faster with a dot.

 

[peacemaker45]

Leaving aside the vagaries of dot sights, which I'm not sure are really that relevant to IDPA anyhow, I've got a couple of thoughts on the original subject,

First, I think that unless you're already a highly skilled shooter, it might be better to shoot your matches and do most of your practice with a full size gun. It's easier to learn when you're not having to fight with your equipment. Much of what you learn running a full size gun will transfer to the little one, especially if they're the same platform. I think that shooting and practicing with only the little one will definitely slow, and possible limit your growth as a shooter.

A couple of matches with the little gun may be quite valuable. Matches are fantastic at exposing flaws in equipment, technique, and expectations. I just think that in this case, enough is as good as a feast.