If midlength ARs are so great, why do they still build CAR-gas? Market inertia?

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Like the title says. If midlength gas systems offer notable advantages in parts wear and felt recoil, why do so many mfgs offer CAR length?

Is it just sheer inertia? Insufficient incentive to retool?

Bushmaster had zero middys last I checked

RRA and CMMG offer both middy and CAR-gas.

Is there any good reason for CAR-gas in a 16" barrel?

I'd imagine that there are enough middy handguard accessories that that particular advantage has dropped out. Anything else I'm missing?

It seems that when someone wants to buy "just an AR" these days, they tend to end up with a 16" A4 w/ collapsing stock. Will fewer and fewer of those "fundamental carbines" be CAR, and more be middy, as time goes on?

-MV
 
my uninformed off-the-cuff speculation is that parts wear and felt recoil and even reliability are of little concern to the military compared to length and weight, etc.

and for civilian retail, 99% of AR15 owners probably
a) never looked under the handguards, and
b) put <200 rnds through any given non-rimfire gun in their life
c) couldn't pick a midlength gas system out of a lineup

people buy on looks, and short guns look eviler and blacker than long guns
 
It's a little like asking "If Buffalo meat is so good and tasty, why are there still cows?"

Up until very very recently, we've had 20+ years of carbine length AR's and the demand is still high, as are the number of companies producing them.

I don't see CAR length gas systems going the way of the dodo anytime soon, it's just another option....and "In between" gas length, albeit the latest rage.
 
"If Buffalo meat is so good and tasty, why are there still cows?"

I actually posted that one on another forum, and have yet to get a solid answer.

I'm still not clear as to why sheep and goat meat are more expensive than beef. You'd think they'd be easier to raise, and are certainly tastier than beef.

-MV
 
I can think of a few reasons, and I'm sure that all of them play into this somewhat.

1. The differences aren't all that huge. Most non-military shooters will never notice the difference in durability (heck, most military shooters don't), felt recoil is subjective. I actually think sight radius might be the biggest difference for the average shooter, and that is probably only a marginal advantage as well. This is probably the biggest reason of all. It's better, but not OMG-better, if you follow me.

2. The demand for M4geries is huge. Middys look different.

3. You can get a M4gery with a permanently attached flash hider that makes it legal, so that means you can have a FH-equipped carbine that is shorter than a FH-equipped Middy.

4. The middy is a lot newer to the market, and as such the assortment of makers, models, trinkets, doodads and thingamajigs has not yet caught up.

5. No major LE agency or military uses the middy (that I know of, anyway), but a LOT of them use the carbine configuration, so major makers can take advantage of economies of scale in building carbine uppers for the civilian market. For instance, I have no idea what a m4-profile barrel costs a manufacturer to make or buy, but I bet that it is significantly cheaper than a 16"er set up for midlength gas system. This is not due to the midlength being more expensive in raw materials (well, it is longer) or assembly labor, but due to major component makers cranking out boatloads of carbine barrels, handguards, gas tubes, etc. It's the same reason AR magazines are cheap and Mini-14 magazines are expensive...one is cranked out by the hundreds of units per hour, the other is not. The mass-produced one will be cheaper.

6. Ignorance. People can identify an M-16. Most can identify an M4. Ask them what a midlength is and you get a blank stare.

Mike
 
I have a Bravo Co. "middy" upper.
I bought into the "softer felt recoil, more reliable gas system, less wear and tear on internals" deal.

I love the upper, don't get me wrong.
It runs like a sewing machine, 100%, all the time. Not one malf ever.

But, I can't tell the difference in felt recoil between it and any other AR I have shot.
Feels the same to me.
 
cheaptrick, i can tell a big difference in mine, but then i also have an adjustable gas block
 
3. You can get a M4gery with a permanently attached flash hider that makes it legal, so that means you can have a FH-equipped carbine that is shorter than a FH-equipped Middy.
Huh??
According to RRA website, the standard CAR A2/A4 is 36.25"
The Mid-Length A2/A4 is also 36.25" The barrels are the same length, the only difference is between the front sight radius and length of handguards.
 
But, I can't tell the difference in felt recoil between it and any other AR I have shot.

Have you tried shooting it side by side with a carbine or rifle? I never noticed the difference between the rifle and the carbine until I did that.

I think Coronach gave a great rundown of the situation (except for #3 ;) ). The only thing I would add to it is that most people, even institutional buyers, just aren't aware of the differences. If you asked 100 AR15 owners about their rifles, I bet 80% of them would be unaware that there is even a difference in different length gas systems.

As for why midlengths aren't more widely used, I'd just note that Armalite (the Mark Westrom version) was one of the pioneers of the concept. Armalite's Tech Note 48 (the website is currently unavailable; but you can find it in Google cache) described the problem as early as August 2003. Armalite had created the midlength gas system even earlier (around 2001 IIRC). For a long time, if you wanted a midlength you had once choice - Armalite.

Then the RRA guys split away from Armalite and they kept the midlength concept because it made sense, so now you had two manufacturers offering midlengths. In addition the popularity of longer gas systems in 3-gun meant you started seeing more of them offered from custom houses.

Now in 2006, you have Armalite, RRA, CMMG, Sabre Defence, and practically every custom AR maker out there offering midlengths. It looks to me like midlengths are gaining ground in the market, albeit slowly. I like my Bushmaster; but Bushmaster hasn't been a leader in new concepts for a long, long time now. They are usually a dollar short and a day late on new ideas for ARs.

A great anecdote illustrating why midlengths are slow to catch on (and why bigger manufacturers are often behind the curve) is the Bushmaster 1/7 group buy on AR15.com from several years back. At the time, about the only place to buy milspec chrome-lined 1/7 barrels was Colt (and the price was arond $400). You could occasionally buy foreign contract overruns from Bushmaster; but they were not a catalog item. AR15.com users begged Bushmaster to make a 16" or 14.5" 1/7 barrel. Most wanted an M4 profile but would have been happy for anything. Bushmaster, after much prodding, put up a poll to gauge demand. They had hundreds of responses indicating interest; but after six months, still no barrels from Bushmaster.

Suddenly a new company steps into the scene (CMMG) and they not only offer 1/7 milspec barrels; but they offer them in a variety of configurations (14.5", 16", M4, HBAR, etc.). About six months later, Bushmaster offers a limited run of 200 16" HBAR 1/7 barrels. Because many of the people who initially wanted a 1/7 either bought them at high prices from custom barrel makers or jumped on the CMMG sales, Bushmaster barely sold half of the run. Instead of reaching the conclusion that the problem was that they reacted too slowly to market demand and didn't offer enough options to maximize that market, Bushmaster reached the conclusion that there was not enough market demand for 1/7 barrels to justify production and continued to concentrate on 1/9 barrels.

In the meantime, two new companies stepped in to fill the gap (CMMG and Bravo Co.) and they offered milspec 1/7 barrels immediately. Not coincidentally, both were also quick to catch the midlength wave as well. Now both companies have grown large enough serving that non-existent market that several years later, Bushmaster is reconsidering its 1/7 decision and is once again polling on AR15.com to see if there is demand for another run. By 2010, they'll probably be making midlengths.
 
So for a civilian buying an AR for plinking, HD and occasional hunting, is a middy better enough to make the decision or are there other advantages to a CAR that would factor into it? I had decided to get a middy but it seems like there may be other things to consider, and the benefits are not so great as to outweigh all other issues. Is that correct?
 
Scott - read the text you just quoted again. He is not talking about a plain CAR. He is talking about an M4gery with a 14.5" barrel and a slightly longer flash hider, not a 16" barrel plus flash hider. You should save an inch or so and a few ounces with that difference.
 
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Even at its worst the .223/5.56mm doesn't recoil much at all, regardless of gas system.

Most people won't notice the slight bit of extra recoil with the CAR gas system (other than competition shooters).
 
zund, we're not talking about painful recoil here, like searching for a way to moderate magnum calibers. the difference in recoil is like, how many tenths of a second does it take before i can see through my acog again?
 
So for a civilian buying an AR for plinking, HD and occasional hunting, is a middy better enough to make the decision or are there other advantages to a CAR that would factor into it? I had decided to get a middy but it seems like there may be other things to consider, and the benefits are not so great as to outweigh all other issues. Is that correct?

The main benefits from a middy you would see in that use is better sight radius, slightly smoother recoil, and less chance to brand yourself with a hot barrel. Theoretically, you should also see a longer lifespan for parts like the bolt and springs and better reliability as well - assuming of course that the same quality parts & assembly are used in the mid as the carbine. However, I've not seen any hard data that actually quantifies whether the theory pans out yet and even if there was a measurable difference, it won't be a big one.

The drawbacks of a mid are very few and mostly small. They weigh a tiny bit more and they will be more expensive because they aren't produced in the same numbers and you have a more limited choice of manufacturers to pick from.

There are a lot of benefits to a mid; but we aren't talking mind-blowing, dramatic benefits... just small incremental benefits. To use one example, your sight radius is now 2" longer - that will help accuracy; but it isn't likely to turn a military grade barrel into a sub-MOA shooter. At best you are talking fractions of an inch, so is it a practical advantage? Another example, lock time on a rifle is 175/1,000,000ths of a second slower than the carbine. This tiny bit of difference means stresses on the bolt are about 50% less when it unlocks. As a result, when you compare M16A2 reliability with M4 reliability, the M16A2 usually wins but the margin is often a tiny one that doesn't make it a clear-cut choice and sometimes the M16A2 doesn't win. So is the even smaller difference between the midlength and the carbine going to be a benefit?

Basically it comes down to if you can get a 16" midlength or a carbine using similar quality parts for a comparable price, there is no reason not to choose the mid. The tricky part is when you get into price differences - is a subjectively smoother recoil, 2" extra sight radius and barrel protection worth an extra $50? an extra $100? The other tricky part is if the price is the same, are the parts & assembly of the same quality? That is a topic all its own though...

the difference in recoil is like, how many tenths of a second does it take before i can see through my acog again?

Exactly.
 
Scott - read the text you just quoted again. He is not talking baout a plain CAR. He is talking about an M4gery with a 14.5" barrel and a slightly longer flash hider, not a 16" barrel plus flash hider. You should save an inch or so and a few ounces with that difference.

Ahh...I got it now.
Hey, I bought the Mid Length just because it looks better than that long skinny barrel sticking out of the handguard. :D As mentioned earlier, most guys won't even think about the reliability factor involved with the mid length. Just the cool factor!
 
zund, we're not talking about painful recoil here, like searching for a way to moderate magnum calibers. the difference in recoil is like, how many tenths of a second does it take before i can see through my acog again?
My point exactly ... the vast majority of AR owners are not concerned about that extra 1/10th second that they can see through the ACOG they don't have.

thats why I said: Most people won't notice the slight bit of extra recoil with the CAR gas system (other than competition shooters).


This explains why there are so many CARs on the market.
 
Yeah, I wasn't clear. You can get a CAR with a 14.5" barrel with a fixed FH, bringing it to 16", but I have yet to see a middy in that configuration. Not all carbines come that way, though. As was stated, RRA doesn't offer a 14.5+FH option.

So, you can get a FH-equipped carbine that is shorter (by the length of one A2 FH) than a FH-equipped Midlength.

And no, I don't really think this is a big difference, but I'll envoke El Tejon's Rule (the Subject is Objective when dealing with guns) and allow that some people might find it a big enough reason to get the carbine over the midlength, and so I'll toss it up on my list.

Mike
 
"If Buffalo meat is so good and tasty, why are there still cows?"
I actually posted that one on another forum, and have yet to get a solid answer.

Well, it may be because the question is like asking, "If Marxist ideology is so good, why is there still capitalism?" - ie, because it isn't good. I don't know about you, but I don't prefer the tast of bison over beef. I don't even particularly care for bison - beef is much tastier. Furthermore, buffalo are 'wild' animals and are just starting to be fit into the rigamarole of being domesticated; cattle have millennia of domestication, with a good dozen (or more) sub-breeds which are favorable for meat and milk, with more being developed using modern techniques.

As for the original question... the answer is in the title of the thread. :) There does not appear to be an advantage of CAR over midlength as near as I can tell, and the opposite is true at seemingly negligible advantage to the producer. The only reason I see Bushmaster still making CAR ARs is because of military contracts.
 
You can get a CAR with a 14.5" barrel with a fixed FH, bringing it to 16", but I have yet to see a middy in that configuration

712.jpg


Now you can't say that anymore. *grin*

It's the first upper listed on their website:

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=494618&cat=27&

-MV
 
Well, shut my mouf. :D

Does it work well? Or does it suffer from the same problem that rifle-length gas systems on shorter barrels suffer from?

Mike
 
I was wondering the same thing. Was going to call CMMG to ask, as they were pretty honest when I asked them about their rifle-gas Dissipator-clones (i.e. "we really recommend the middy version, but we do offer the rifle-length because some people ask for it")


I'm considering getting the full 16" Middy instead, but Zak has got me thinking about the 17" with the rifle-length gas.

I'll probably be selling my retro-A1 Dissipator soon, sticking with my SP1 slabside upper for a bit. I'll decide then whether I really need the <20" length and 1/7 barrel, or whether that feathery-light 20" pencil barrel does it for me. Heck, all my stocked ammo is 55gr anyway...

-MV
 
Bart Rob:
Negative,
I never shot my middy side by side with other length gas systems.
You may very well be right that the middy is milder. I didn't notice.

I'm very pleased with my Bravo Middy.
I would like to shoot it side by side with a M4 upper for a comparison.
 
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That Armalite tech note analyzed the gas pressure at the port and related that to extraction reliability. Long story short, M4's have had more extraction problems than full 20" rifles because the gas pressure is a lot higher at the port, and there is still a lot more chamber pressure when extraction starts.

The midlength gas system splits the difference between the M4 and the rifle gas system, and alleviates those two pressure/timing related issues.
 
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