If the 1911 and Glock 21 were both made in the year 1911

[savanahsdad]

So you were knowingly equating "a punch" to a "toolbox"? I think that is where the disconnect is occuring in people's minds. You need one small tool. Hell the striker probably could work in a pinch if you have strong fingers.



Yes both take me right up 85. Depending on carpool arrangements and timing I might not mind checking out your setup.

you may want to go back and read again ,,, the word sarcastic was used

 

[powder]

Glock lol. I know we have tons of 1911 fans here but please be honest with yourself. Glock, hands down, landslide victory. Durability, reliability, round capacity, ease of takedown and maintenance, weight, and design (striker instead of hammer). Just my opinion.

Geez yeah, I think the G19 even has higher capacity than a double-stack 9mm 2011, but there the G weighs probably 1/3 of the 2011.

Ever get in and out of a car all day, in a 10 hour shift, with a 1911 on your hip? The weight/energy savings alone, in that 10 hr. period, is THE largest factor that agencies choose polymers.

However, I digress from the OPs thread. If they were both made in 1911, the USAF would be Glock by now. What has been the hurdle for Glock? They already have a customer base bigger than another Mil contract, to justify a team ($$$) that will specialize in jumping through the DOD hoops. It would be a nice feather in their cap, but they do not need it.

 

[1911Tuner]

ny32182...Advise me of your schedule and we'll arrange it. I used to be up for grabs pretty much any day, but now...with Kelie's work-from-home setup...Weekends are about it. She'll be out of town on September 7th-9th...so that Friday is open.

It's complicated. She's a casework nurse, and when she's on the phone, the dogs have to be kept quiet. A knock on the door sets'em off.

 

[savanahsdad]

Come play follow the leader, and do as I do...and I'll take that bet.



I don't even need those. The 1911 is its own tool box.

right !! and a great hammer all in one

 

[savanahsdad]

Geez yeah, I think the G19 even has higher capacity than a double-stack 9mm 2011, but there the G weighs probably 1/3 of the 2011.

Ever get in and out of a car all day, in a 10 hour shift, with a 1911 on your hip? The weight/energy savings alone, in that 10 hr. period, is THE largest factor that agencies choose polymers.

However, I digress from the OPs thread. If they were both made in 1911, the USAF would be Glock by now. What has been the hurdle for Glock? They already have a customer base bigger than another Mil contract, to justify a team ($$$) that will specialize in jumping through the DOD hoops. It would be a nice feather in their cap, but they do not need it.

Rock River makes a Poly 1911, takes care of that

 

[ny32182]

Tuner, I'll PM when the time comes. I've got this mental picture of your shop.

 

[GLOOB]

As a Glock-ish fan myself, I have to say that the majority of what you mentioned is a wash between the two. Weight and capacity are really the only two bonuses the Glock has over 1911.

I'd put cost and method of mass manufacturing as the #1 difference. The forged barrel of the Glock, the stamped sheet steel internals, and the molded frames are all incredibly efficient to mass produce.

Rather than subcontracting random machine shops and sewing machine companies to hobble together enough 1911's to fight a war, one might argue that many of the Glock's parts might have been made at the same factory, to a single set of specs, which would have made all those parts interchange with each other with a minimum of hand-fitting.

Many more parts in a 1911 are milled. Takes more time which means more cost. And bigger tolerances as the machines wear out, trying to keep up with the demands of a war. And the design is such that those increased tolerances can lead to more problems in the 1911 design, such as 3 pt jams or whatnot.

 

[Skribs]

I'd put cost and method of mass manufacturing as the #1 difference.

True, but I was just talking about the quality of the weapons, at least from my perspective (personal defense, same traits apply to LEO/military, IMO). The cost is the reason why I'm staying XDm over 2011.

 

[Fastcast]

What if, lol....101 years later and Glock still can't get in the game....While the 1911 soldiers on with dignity and class!

 

[1911Tuner]

Don't have a shop, ny. I got out of the bidness years ago. What work I do these days, I do the old-fashioned way...by hand with files and stones. Mostly, what I do is address functional issues and make delinquent pistols abide by the rules. I'll occasionally fit a barrel for a friend on request...or for my own use...but that about covers it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Glock! The great innovation!

Not.

If the Glock camp knew how many of John Browning's fingerprints were on Gaston's toy, they'd have a stroke.

Let's count the ways.

Tilt barrel/locked breech/short recoil operation...Browning.

Locking/recoil lug(s) mounted on top of the barrel/inside the slide...Browning

Incorporation of slide and breechbolt into a single part...Browning.

Front slide dismount...Browning.

Double column/single feed position magazine...Browning/Grande Rendement

Striker fired...Browning/Grande Rendement

Magazine release button located near the thumb...Browning.

Linkless frame cross member to effect barrel rise and fall...Guess we'll have to give this one to Saive, though Browning was probably involved.

Yeh. Whenever I look at a Glock, I envision John Mose peekin' over the top of the slide in a "Kilroy was here" pose. heh

 

[deputy tom]

Glock's grip fit Eastern Europeans large hands well. Back in the day the 1911 fit ALMOST everyone's hands in the USA. A little while later they altered the 1911 into the 1911A1 for a reason. Americans had smaller hands.That is the reason for the relief cuts on the frame behind the trigger on 1911-A1s. tom.

 

[el Godfather]

A manual safety can be added to any glock.

If Glock was in race back then they would added the manual safety.

They would have taken the contract for sheer capacity sake. Role of pistol was more back then than now and capacity would have been a major element.

 

[1911Tuner]

If Glock was in race back then they would added the manual safety.

Sure they would've. Grip safety, too. The man with a fistful of money and an order on the table for a half-million pistols gets to pick what he wants.

They would have taken the contract for sheer capacity sake. Role of pistol was more back then than now and capacity would have been a major element.

Yep...as long as it was .45 caliber...but tryin' to sell the old heads in the Army Ordnance Department on a plastic frame might've taken a dump in Glock's mess kit.

 

[el Godfather]

Well we are talking about 45.

Not sure whether or not polymer would have faced resistance.

 

[1911Tuner]

Not sure whether or not polymer would have faced resistance.

You can go ahead and bet that it would've. Self-loading pistols in general met with resistance enough as it was. A plastic automatic wouldn't have been given more than a curious glance.

 

[el Godfather]

1911Tuner
I admire your support for 1911. More importantly, I enjoy ready your posts. Not only they are interesting when you are defending 1911, but your knowledge on handguns in general is an asset for all of us here on THR.

However, I am not a betting man. I place more stock on objective view and collective wisdom of folks deciding purely based on merits, rather.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

These threads are waaay better than TV. Every time I read 1911 vs xyz I can't get the thread open fast enough.

When it's over... well, see sig line.

 

[Skribs]

Well, the Glock may have gotten a lot from Browning, but it certainly feels different than a 1911. Although, my favorites are far from original. I'm not focused on originality, but rather on function.

Do both Glock and 1911 function? Yes. Does the Glock fit what I would want better? Yes. Is the Glock cheaper? Yes. Would I still use a 1911 if it was available? Yes, but I'd have a very slow time before my first shot because I'm used to my XDm and I would forget to take the safety off.

Does 1911Tuner know more about firearms than me? Yes. That fact doesn't make me second-guess my decision to not own a 1911, because I know my XDm will work better for me.

 

[1911Tuner]

I admire your support for 1911.

Not so much in support of the 1911 as it is tryin' to dispel with a few myths and set the record straight. I understand how the pistol functions and I know what to do in order to make one behave...but I'm not actually all that enamored with it, other than collecting military pistols. Revolvers are my first love. Give me a good K-Frame or two and a few single-actions, and I could be happy for the rest of my days if I never pulled the trigger on another 1911.

 

[rcmodel]

Americans had smaller hands.

That seems very unlikely to me.

Although men in the early 1900's were certainly of smaller stature in general then today?
Americans were better fed and grew larger in 1911 then any Eurpean nations men.

Ever try to put a German army helmet on your head??

rc

 

[el Godfather]

Yes give me a Colt SA 5" in 357, I dont need a pistol unless I have to go into a combat in which case it would be H&K USP 45.

 

[coolluke01]

Understand that this discussion was using the premise of 1911 vs G21 in the year 1911, not to really figure out the what if, but to shed some light on why we choose what we use now.

There were a few things that made the G21 not fit in the US Military's box in the year 1911.

1. External Safety
2. Locking Slide
3. Not steel, they would have likely been ignorant of the possibilities of polymer.

Are theses issues really problems today?

External safety isn't an issue for me or many others. So I think that's just kinda a feel good, might as well have one issue.

Locking slide. Cool idea but I don't see the need for me to ever need that.

Polymer. I think enough has been shown to prove that polymer is a very good material to use for handgun frames.

What makes the 1911 worth carrying now? Arn't there better options available?

As I have said before, I think the main reason is familiarity and nostalgia. Which is just fine.

The current military bid for new 1911's is just more of the same. Government entities don't like change. Also the current requirement for US made products rule out Glock.

 

[rcmodel]

I think the main reason is familiarity and nostalgia.

I think you are wrong.

The average age of a Marine in one of the Expeditionary Force units getting the new 1911's puts him still soiling his diapers when the Beretta M9 became the standard issue sidearm.

In case you didn't know, many Glocks are made in the Smyrna, GA factory now days.
If they had a military contract all of them could be, just like FNH M16's & machine guns we use.

rc

 

[coolluke01]

I think we all know the boots on the ground are not usually the ones with the say. The brass that's making these decisions are likely not the young guns that only ever knew the m9.

I think the GA factory only assembles the Glocks, they are manufactured in Austria I believe. I don't know the in's and out's of the military's requirements, but I thought that would still exclude them.