If you have to register cars, you should have to register guns!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dmack_901

Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Messages
361
Location
FL
I hear this all the time, but I never hear anyone respond with the arguement I generally use. So I want to throw it out for your crituiqe.

If you have to register cars, you should have to register guns... right?

No, you only have to register you car IF you are going to drive it on public roadways. You do not need to register your car if you are just collecting it, or racing it at a private track, etc.

Similarly you should not have to register if you are collecting the gun, shooting it at the range, hunting, etc.

It would be a reasonable arguement for (shall issue)CCW over unregulated carry, but otherwise it doesn't make sense.
 
I'm willing to add a Constitutional Amendment along the lines of, "Transportation being necessary to a free people, the right to travel shall not be infringed."

So far, though, the Constitution does speak to our ownership of firearms, although the notion of our horses or cars got omitted...

:), Art
 
The Bill of Rights does not have an ammendment about cars. And point out that there are many more guns than cars in this country.

I would also point out that the majority of genocides start by registering then disarming the populace.

If we can register weapons what about knives? They are used in murders as well. And baseball bats. And cars.

Oh and alcohol is involved is a factor in the majority of murders so we should register what people are drinking.
 
It hardly matters, since firearms are already registered, but I would be all for treating guns like cars. My California handgun license should allow me to carry my registered pistol throughout the United States, just like my CDL allows me to drive my registered automobile throughout the U.S.

~G. Fink
 
I'd actually love it if guns were registered like cars or cars registers like guns.
You'd either get more gun owners or less traffic. A win win situation.

The underlying fault to this argument is that those out to register guns usualy equate guns to crime where they wont do the same with cars and car accidents. They figure that if you force people to list their firearms, you'll magicly get a handy list of all criminals in the state.
Canada should prove a good example of how that does not actually work.

They had a list of what, seven million guns and yet only one criminal act commited with a listed weapon?
Thats both a waste of money and time with zero effect. It didnt help cops or protect citizens. No cop could use that list to determine wheather a building was safe to enter just like you wouldnt use a car registry to determine what vehicles are in a garage. Likewise it provides no more protection from being shot than a license plate gives you from being run over.
If you have a shooting victem but no weapon, you still cant linke a murderer to the crime by saying "He bought a gun last year!", just like you cant say someone ran over an old lady by stating they owned a car.

The licensing system for automobiles itself has not been very effective. It mostly provides trivial information after the fact and anyone can attest to how many bad drivers still exist.

The additional problems with registering a gun is they dont stop there. Its usualy part of a larger package with background checks, waiting periods, limits on how many and what kinds of weapons you can buy, etc...
I'm all for an equal set of rules on both cars and guns, but I doubt anyone who drives would accept that.
 
Lol, yeah, it ignores the 2nd.

But until the SCOTUS recognises it, only our refusal to abide by infringements makes it exist... So until Civil Disopedience picks up, I won't go the hard-line with everyone. Some, but not everyone.

edit:
Canada should prove a good example of how that does not actually work.
They had a list of what, seven million guns and yet only one criminal act commited with a listed weapon?
Then they always point out Canada's "lower crime rate". But BTW, do we have any stats on crime rates within densily populated areas? I'll check.

But the only semi-valid arguement for it is the ability to track down dealers who habitually break laws. (heard this on the NPR post someone made) If such a group exists.
 
David Kopel did a great piece on treating guns like cars.

http://reason.com/9911/fe.dk.taking.shtml

REASON * November 1999 said:
Taking It to the Streets
Why treating guns like cars might not be such a bad idea

By David B. Kopel


Should we treat guns like cars? Handgun Control Inc. has been saying so for years, and this summer Vice President Al Gore agreed. "We require a license to drive a car in this nation in order to keep unsafe drivers off the road," Gore said. "As president, I will fight for a national requirement that every state issue photo licenses [for handgun buyers]. We should require a license to own a handgun so people who shouldn't have them can't get them." Prospective licensees should have to "pass a background test and pass a gun safety test." Gore predicted that his plan would cause the gun lobby to "have a fit."

Actually, if Gore follows through on his promise to treat guns like cars, he will oversee the most massive decontrol of firearms in America since 1868, when the 14th Amendment abolished the Southern states' Black Codes, which prevented freedmen from owning guns. Although anti-gun lobbyists who use the car analogy are pushing for additional controls, laws that really did treat guns like cars would be much less restrictive, on the whole, than what we have now.

The first thing to go would be the 1986 federal ban on the manufacture of machine guns for sale to ordinary citizens. We don't ban cars like Porsches just because they are high-powered and can drive much faster than the speed limit. Even though it's a lot easier to go 50 miles per hour over the highway speed limit in a Porsche than in a Hyundai, we let people own any car they want, no matter what its potential for abuse.

After getting rid of the machine gun ban, the next step toward treating cars like guns would be repealing the 1994 federal "assault weapon" ban and its analogs in California, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and a few other jurisdictions. So-called assault weapons are actually ordinary guns that fire just one bullet each time the trigger is pressed, but they happen to look like machine guns. Just as we don't ban powerful Porsches (which actually can go very fast), we don't ban less-powerful vehicles that simply look like high-performance cars.

Likewise, we don't ban autos because they are underpowered, or because they're made with low-quality metal. If you want a Yugo, you can buy one. So the state-level bans on inexpensive guns (a.k.a. "junk guns" or "Saturday night specials") will have to go, along with the federal rules against the import of cheap guns.

Also slated for elimination under the treat-cars-like-guns rule are thousands of laws regulating the purchase of firearms and their possession on private property. The simple purchase of an automobile is subject to essentially no restrictions. When you show up at the dealer's showroom, he will not conduct a background check to find out if you have a conviction for vehicular homicide, or if you've been arrested for drunk driving, or even if you have a driver's license. All you need is money.

The only "waiting period" to buy a car runs from the time you pay for it (with cash, a certified check, or a loan document) to the time the salesman hands you the keys. This waiting period tends to run from 30 seconds to five minutes. In contrast, firearms are the only product in this country for which FBI permission (via the national background check) is required for every single retail purchase.

If you keep your automobile on private property, there are virtually no restrictions. Even though your driver's license was revoked last week, you can drive your Jeep on your ranch as much as you want. Indeed, you can drink a case of beer before you go driving around your ranch, and enjoy the ride knowing that you are not violating a single law. (Of course, if any form of negligent or reckless conduct with your auto on your own property results in injury to an innocent person or to someone else's property, you will be financially responsible, and you may be prosecuted for violating laws against reckless endangerment.)

Thus, we can get rid of all the laws concerning gun storage in the home, together with the laws that ban possession of guns by various persons on private property. Current federal law outlaws gun possession, on private as well as public property, by anyone who has ever been convicted of a felony (even a nonviolent one), anyone with a misdemeanor involving domestic violence (such as two brothers who had a fistfight on their front lawn 30 years ago), anyone who has been dishonorably discharged from the military, any alcoholic, any illegal drug user (defined by regulation as anyone who has used drugs in the last year), any illegal alien, and various other "prohibited persons." Some states, such as Massachusetts, go even further, making all gun possession presumptively illegal, except for persons with special licenses. Once we really treat guns like cars, all of these laws will be swept away.

Most cities do prohibit property owners from storing their cars in an unsightly manner (say, on cinder blocks in the front yard), or from parking too many cars on the public street in front of their homes. Fair enough. Gun owners will have to accept laws against leaving nonfunctional guns strewn about their front yard, and they will not be allowed to leave excessive numbers of guns on the street. (Anti-gun groups frequently complain that there are "too many guns on the street.")

If you have a car on your own property, you can hitch it to a trailer, have it pulled to someone else's property, and drive the car on his property (assuming you have his permission). As long as your car is just being towed, you don't need a driver's license or plates. Thus, gun owners should be allowed to transport their unloaded guns to private property (a shooting gallery, for example) for use on that property. Jurisdictions such as New York City would no longer have the power to require a separate "target permit" just to take a gun to the local pistol range.

But now suppose that you want to use your car on public property, such as a street or an old logging trail in a national forest. Then a licensing system does come into play--but only because the car will be used in public. For a license that allows you to drive a car anywhere in public, most states require that you 1) be at least 15 or 16 years old; 2) take a written safety test that requires an IQ of no more than 75 to pass; and 3) show an examiner that you know how to operate a car and how to obey basic safety rules and traffic signs.

Your license may be revoked or suspended if, while driving in public, you violate certain safety rules or cause an accident. Except in egregious cases (such as killing someone while driving with extreme recklessness), first or second offenses do not usually result in license revocations. Once the driver's license is issued, it is good in every state of the union.

These driver's license requirements seem to be what Gore has in mind for handguns, although he fails to recognize that the requirements apply only to cars used in public, not cars possessed in private. The vice president's mistake is understandable, given his lack of driving experience in the years since the taxpayers have been paying for his full-time chauffeur. (In July, Gore warned that the 2000 election is "no time to take a far-right U-turn." He apparently did not realize that on American roads, it is impossible to make a U-turn to the right.)

The guns-like-cars licensing system touted by Gore is already in effect in 30 states, where adults with a clean record can obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun for lawful protection. (Vermont requires no permit.) Making the concealed handgun licensing system exactly like the driver licensing system would involve a few tweaks, namely: 1) reducing the minimum age for a license (21 or 25 in most states); 2) reducing the fees (which can run over $100 in many states); 3) mandating a written exam in the minority of states that do not currently have one; 4) adding a practical demonstration test, which most states do not currently have (but which Texas does); and 5) making the licenses valid everywhere, instead of just in the issuing state. And of course, the 19 states that currently don't give handgun carry permits to every person with a clean record would have to change their laws.

A few states already require licensees to register one or two specific guns that will be carried. Under the treat-guns-like-cars rule, every gun carried in public would have to be registered, and the owner would have to pay an annual or semiannual registration tax. The registration would also apply to hunting or target shooting guns used on public lands.

Once you get a driver's license, you can drive your car anywhere that is open to the public. Thus, we will have to repeal all the laws against carrying guns within 1,000 feet of a school, or in bars, or on government property.

Although legislative bodies regulate gun design (through laws banning machine guns, "assault weapons," and inexpensive guns), no federal agency has the authority to impose new design standards on firearms. In contrast, federal regulators do impose a wide variety of safety rules on automobiles. Some of these rules, such as mandatory passenger-side air bags, end up killing people.

So the one major way in which treating guns like cars would lead to more-restrictive gun laws would be to allow federal regulators to impose design mandates on firearms. Some of these regulations will, like automobile safety rules, cause the deaths of innocent people. Certain kinds of trigger locks, for example, can cause a loaded gun to fire when it is dropped, and a "magazine disconnect" can prevent a gun owner from firing his weapon when he is attacked. But if we accept death from regulation for cars, then perhaps we will have to accept it for guns as well.

Faced with the prospect of really treating guns like cars, gun prohibitionists tend to change their minds. They begin arguing that there are important differences in dangerousness between guns and cars. This is true. Cars are much more dangerous.

The Independence Institute's Robert Racansky points out that in 1994 (the last year for which data are available), there were 32 auto deaths for every 100,000 autos in the United States. The same year, there were 16 firearm deaths for every 100,000 firearms in the United States. Put another way, in any given year, the average car is twice as likely as the average gun to cause a death.

And more than 95 percent of gun deaths are intentional (suicide or homicide), while most auto deaths are accidents. This shows how dangerous cars really are: They are twice as likely to kill as guns are, even though the killer behind the wheel does not intend to take a life. Plus, most people who die from guns are suicides who choose to die, but almost none of the people who die in car crashes choose to die.

Another argument against treating guns like cars, of course, is that gun ownership is explicitly protected by the U.S. Constitution and by 44 state constitutions, while car ownership has no such special status. On the other hand, if the groups that call for treating guns like cars followed their own advice, they would immediately disband. There are no major Washington lobby groups arguing that people should be able to buy a car only if the government decides they need one, or that people should use only public transportation, instead of private vehicles, during life-threatening emergencies.

Yet Handgun Control Inc.'s Sarah Brady favors "needs-based licensing" for firearms. "To me," she told the Tampa Tribune, "the only reason for guns in civilian hands is for sporting purposes." In response to the question of whether there are legitimate reasons for owning a handgun, Brady's husband and fellow anti-gun activist, Jim Brady, told Parade magazine: "For target shooting, that's OK. Get a license and go to the range. For defense of the home, that's why we have police departments."

Even if the anti-gun groups did not disband, they would have to change their style dramatically. People who own cars, and who belong to pro-car lobbying groups (such as the American Automobile Association), are treated respectfully by those who disagree with them. They are not routinely denounced when a criminal with a car kills someone.

A few days after the Columbine High School murders last April, Steve Abrams deliberately drove his Cadillac onto a playground in Costa Mesa, California, killing a 3-year-old and a 4-year-old. No one showed up on television to claim that General Motors, car owners in general, or anyone other than Steve Abrams was responsible for this crime. Politicians did not try to use Abrams' murderous act to create a campaign issue or stir up support for restrictions on law-abiding car owners. If gun owners were treated like car owners, they would not be vilified by smug moral imperialists with the energetic assistance of the president and most of the national news media. Sad to say, that would be progress.
 
We have a historical record of what happens after a government confiscates all the guns and leaves a populace defenseless.

I don't think have a historical analogy of a population left transportation-less.
 
"If you have to register cars, you should have to register guns."


Be logically consistent, and argue that the state has neither the authority nor the right to license you to do either. Licensure is a form of exclusion. Exclusionary was not the way America was envisioned.


You need a license to build a house, sell a house, repair a car or fix a leaky pipe.

In Fairfax County, VA, you have to have a license to braid hair. Why? Because those in the hair braiding industry want to make more money through higher prices. Prices almost always go up either through an increase in demand or a decrease in supply. And, since you can't make people want more heads of hair braided, you have to decrease the supply. So you lobby the government to make people jump through enough hoops that they don't want to jump through the hoops and pick another profession. Then you and your "licensed," exclusionary friends can charge whatever you want.



edited for typo
 
Are there "car control" advocates whose stated goal is the complete confiscation of all civilian owned automobiles?

Has "car control" been used against people over and over and over again throughout history so they could be easily massacred?

Is car ownership a specificially enumerated right that the government is expressly forbidden from infringing upon?
 
"We have a historical record of what happens after a government confiscates all the guns and leaves a populace helpless. I don't think have a historical analogy of a population left transportation-less."



A license is a restriction on your freedom of movement and your right to travel. Rights by their very nature build upon one another and are intricate to each other's preservation. Saying that you need the RKBA but not the freedom to travel is like saying you need a glock but not a trigger finger.

See: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/rossi5.html
 
Register?????

The only reason the Government wants to register anything(cars,boats,guns,pigs,cows) is to be able to tax them.:cuss:
 
Let's flip that around. Why should we have to register cars?

The right to travel is a fundamental right. City zoning being what it is, the use of an automobile is now necessary for us to exercise that right. How many of us can walk to work? It's not enumerated, but that doesn't make it not a right. Saying that it's a privilege, as states like to do, doesn't make it so.
 
Well heck why not require us to wear a Star of David on our clothing too? their socialist heroes had the same kind of idea in the 30s.
 
Try this argument

Instead of arguing with or attempting to have a serious discussion with a total idiot, what you might try is to Whole-Heartedly Agree that they are totally correct in using that comparison for thoughtful analysis, and then "share" with them your feelings about a proposal to help the environment, and tell them you want their opinion on this. Tell them that since bicyclists use the same state and county roads as cars and trucks, that you've been thinking that since cars and trucks are licensed, taxes for use, and registered, shouldn't bicycles be registered and taxed also? (You have to fake sincerity on this, and I swear to God half the time they will believe you are serious)

Keep in mind, the person who argues for gun registration on the position that cars are licensed are almost universally the same Tofu-Munching Environmentalist Wacko-Global Warming Elitists who make up the Anti-Gun, Anti Corporate, Anti-Everything crowd anyway.

Tell them there is a growing movement from folks who believe Bicyclists should pay the same exact licensing fee that automobile owners pay, complete with inspections of the bicycle for safety concerns, along with environmental impact testing fees for oils which drip off the bicycle chain onto "impervious roadway cover".

Since pollution of our waterways must be halted at all costs, no matter what, it is almost impossible for an elitist environmentalist-wacko to argue much against sincere concern of pollution of our waterways.

Then, ask them in as serious a manner as you can attempt, if they will contribute $ 100.00 toward membership fee, to join a group of activists you intend to organize called "License it or Lock it up" or some such nonsense, for the purpose of lobbying efforts to enact State laws to require registration and license fees for any wheeled conveyance which might possibly be utilized on a roadway, such as bicycles, tricycles, or Radio Flyer wagons.

However, if they are not too pot-smoke influenced and peg you as being ridiculous, ask them in an incredulous tone "Don't you care about clean water? Immediately, accuse them in as loud a voice as you can muster, of being "Puppets and Lackeys for the International Globalist Corporations which manufacture these rubber tired instruments of pollution, while contributing ot Global Warming!"

You will never win a gun registration argument with an anti-gun idiot. But you can sure have fun showing them how ludicrous their analogies are.
 
The only reason the Government wants to register anything(cars,boats,guns,pigs,cows) is to be able to tax them

Thats why this is a apples v oranges argument, State DMVs make money that the State gets to spend.

If Congress passed a law that said,

the State DMVs could register your car but, they couldn't charge you money for it.

Meaning the State would have to pay for the program out of the general fund, in 90 days there wouldn't be a DMV left in the country.
 
This might not be so bad...

If my state issued drivers license lets me drive my registered car all over this country, then by that logic, I would be able to carry my registered gun all over the country with my state issued CCW license… RIGHT?:D
 
If guns were treated like cars, then at age 16 high school students could look forward to legally taking the family .357 to school, or bringing it along on a Friday night date . . . right?
 
"State DMVs make money that the State gets to spend."


I'd be hesitant to agree that state DMV's are revenue-positive establishments. I don't think that's the reason DMVs and other sorts of things are around.


I see the problem evolving like this:
1- You have legislators who mistakenly feel that they can make the world a better place.
2- You have citizens who get annoyed about one particular event in which they perceive an injustice done to them (i.e., a person speeding down their quiet street). The citizens want their legislators to "do something about it." And the legislators, of course, think that they can make the world better.
3- Some new law gets enacted, restricting something, regulating something, or creating an entirely new government agency to do so.
4- People get hired by the state to go work at the new agency. This creates a constituency. EVERYTHING has a constituency, even a bridge to nowhere. These people will fight extra hard to keep themselves up and running.
5- The citizens that demanded the change are happy that something was done, whether it makes things better or worse for them, their neighbors, or the community. If the change makes things worse, then they want legislators to pass more laws, more regulation, more bureaucracy.

Citizens who did not initially approve get used to the change, and eventually they accept it. After they accept it, they begin to feel they cannot live without it (how many Americans think that if drivers' licences didn't exist that there would be anarchy on the roads).



Even if a state legislature passed a law that kept DMV's from charging money, the people who work at DMV's would still want their jobs. So would their families. And freedom-hating optimists who believe people are good and that government can make the world better and safer will be enough of a constituency to keep DMV's your once-ever-five-years nightmare, even if the legislature has to finance the agencies independently by, say, raising your taxes.
 
Scenario where I think it'd be okay to register guns like cars:

The 2nd Amendment is applied as vigorously by the courts as some of the other amendments. Hey, maybe they even make up new and broader rights based on the 2nd Amendment's emanations and penumbras.

Political pressure to ban or confiscate guns is squelched completely by the courts.

At 16 years of age, anyone who can register one or more guns, and take a test to show that he/she has the skills to use a gun reasonably safely, and knows the important legal and personal responsibilities involved in using a gun. Passing this test would entitle one to carry as many guns as one wants, anywhere in the United States, on public property, with reciprocal priveleges internationally. (This is how driving works.)

Registration and a skills and rules test are NOT required on private property, or if you're not going to actually carry and use the gun on public property. Transport of the registered gun on public roads is okay, but not use except on private property. (This is how car registration works.)

When a gun is stolen, a report to the police will absolve the registered owner of liability for crimes committed using it, and if the gun is recovered, the police will make a good effort to find the lawful owner and return it, minus storage fees. (This is how the theft of a registered car works.)

Implement those things, and I'll gladly take the test, get the license, and register any guns I plan to use off of private property. Nationwide and limited worldwide carry, without fear of confiscation, would be a perfect trade.

I don't have a problem with registering guns like cars, as long as the simile is carried to its ultimate conclusion:

Nationwide carry, with worldwide priveleges, for anyone 16 and older.
Liability is limited when the gun is stolen.
Stolen guns are found and returned to their owners.

Otherwise, FORGET IT!
 
You are assuming that, even IN SPITE OF THE long and varied history of governments disarming their citizens, that YOURS will not simply because this place was once called the land of the free?

The registration of guns is the last logical step before the confiscation of guns. If they know who has what and where you live, they just go door to door using overwhelming force.

If they don't know who has what, then you are as safe as the Jews in the one (this is 99.9% sure memory, I don't have a cite) German town in which two......TWO...small handguns were unaccounted for and in which a few SS troops were shot dead while trying to round up their victims. The entire might of the German military was brought to its knees by two concealed and anonymous firearms. But hey, let's register the things, so long as GOVERMENT "assures" us that we'll be ok.

50% of owning guns is for self defense from other citizens.
50% of owning guns is for a deterrent, to keep government crapping its pants at the very thought of infringing your rights.
 
I'm with Ken Grant above - I don't think we register cars because of theft. I think its so Gov't has something additional to tax. They gat that annual registration fee which in states like California is based on value and is usually in the hundreds of dollars.
 
50% of owning guns is for self defense from other citizens.
50% of owning guns is for a deterrent, to keep government crapping its pants at the very thought of infringing your rights.

True.

So you have the guns you carry around, and you have the guns you keep on private property. And those are not registered, to anyone, and don't need to be.

I agree that this won't happen. But I'd be willing to register the guns I intend to carry, if that meant CCW across the US, with international reciprocity, like cars. And I'd keep some unregistered, with the understanding that I couldn't carry those around the world.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top