Illinois Gun Shows Outrageous Prices

[oneounceload]

To follow up on what Zundfolge has said - lots of posters here have complained lately about how the quality of Remington and Mossberg has declined - but since all of the buyers are buying cheap Chinese knock-offs, those two felt they had to do something to compete - they had to lower prices as far as possible, and in order to still make a profit, the cut lots oif corners. That is the sellers setting the market value for goods. The current drop in housing prices is another example. Homes are worth more than they can be sold for - keep the price high, house doesn't sell - drop to what folks expect to pay, gets sold quickly - the gun-show/ammo/guns debate is no different

 

[bababooey32]

I'm trying to buy, but they don't want to go below what THEY set.

That's because plenty of customers are buying at that price!! It is the market clearing price. Dealers can ASK any price they want, but the "market clearing" price is the highest price at which the goods will sell. If the dealers you are visiting have "set" their prices too high (above what people are willing to pay) then their shelves will be overflowing. If their prices are too low, the shelves will be bare.

Given the plethora of bare shelves I've seen, my guess is that prices will go up long before they come down (if they EVER come down). Seems dealers are having no problem selling at these higher prices.

While I understand it is frustrating to watch prices go up so quickly, it is certainly not "gouging" or "inflating" but sound business practice. Keep in mind, per post #41, that ammo prices are still generally lower (in real terms) then they were 40 years ago!

 

[Robert]

I have no friends that are dealers. I have not purchased a box of factory ammo in over a year, since before the election, because I felt then that prices were a bit more than what I was willing to pay. So I have been hand loading since then. I buy what I need a little at a time because of my limited budget. If the factories wish to continue to charge high prices for their product then that is their right. I CHOOSE not to buy it and to reload my own.
"Price gouging" is to economics as "assault weapon" is to firearms.

 

[Justin]

I'm trying to buy, but they don't want to go below what THEY set.

Have you made an offer? There's certainly no harm in trying to negotiate a price. Sometimes you can get them to knock their price down a bit just by asking at the right time (last day of the gun show, after lunch) or with the right tone, or by asking for a discount if you buy in quantity.

Internet again? When everyone is out of stock because dealers are buying it up you cant order on the internet, have you been locked in a room since last november?

Of course. The supply chain has been strained from manufacturer to end consumer since the election. But it's hardly a conspiracy among gun dealers to corner the market on the supplies of ammunition and reloading components. Since the election, there has been a jump in consumer demand without a jump in the increase of ammunition being manufactured.

Increased demand for the same quantity of a given commodity is going to result in the cost of that commodity rising, longer delivery times for that commodity, or both. If more people want something, then there will be those who are willing to pay more in order to have it. The result is that those who are not willing to pay the increased price will either opt to substitute something of lesser cost (shooting .22 instead of .45, for example, or buying a reloading press and rolling their own) or to do without.

 

[Zundfolge]

The reality is that most of those yelling "price gouger!" are simply just "cheap".

 

[jh9x18ky]

I agree with the fact that buyers help set prices..... If a seller ask $500 for gun "X" , and it doesnt sell.... the price should come down sooner or later.... If it does sell for $500, the next one will be $525 .... etc. The same with ammo, manufactures or suppliers cant eat ammo, cant drink ammo..... so if WE refuse to pay stupid prices, it will aslo come down again.

 

[Zundfolge]

"The term "Price Gouging" is a dishonest term created by Frankfurt School Marxists and is a classic part of Critical Theory of Marxism." (it's actually one of Locke's terms) - Zundfolge.

Citation, please, or I'm done arguing with you.

 

[Justin]

The reality is that most of those yelling "price gouger!" are simply just "cheap".

There's nothing wrong with being cheap. I do my absolute best to avoid paying retail prices for guns, buy used whenever possible, reload to keep my cost of shooting down, and when I can afford it, order components in bulk in order to save money.

Does all of this mean I spend more time and energy than just popping down to my local gun store and buying whatever they have on the shelf?

Does it mean that I have to take into account long lead times when ordering powder and components?

Yes, it does. It takes effort and at times, a bit of sacrifice to save money, but so what?

 

[Zundfolge]

Nope, nothing wrong with being cheap (I would contend that I'm probably much cheaper than Justin).

But I don't get all ticked off at sellers for not selling to me at a loss.


Look, if one wishes to stew in their own ignorance and allow themselves to get all bent out of shape and worked up that's fine. Its a free country and you can believe whatever you want. My problem is that many people with very wrong ideas about economics get all bent out of shape and petition government to enforce their misguided ideas of fairness.

As long as you're not interested in codifying your angst about "price gouging" into law, I'm fine with you enjoying your blissful ignorance (it just rarely stays that way).

I'd say the ignorance of economics among the citizenry is one of my biggest bugaboos of late ... and while I expect it out there in the Democrat/Progressive dominated media, I hate to see such ignorance here from people who are ostensibly on "my side".

 

[oneounceload]

There's nothing wrong with being cheap. I do my absolute best to avoid paying retail prices for guns, buy used whenever possible, reload to keep my cost of shooting down, and when I can afford it, order components in bulk in order to save money.

I do the same, AND I cut back to make my meager supplies last as long as I can (well, except for my clay target shooting) - but I also have friends who do not reload anything, rifle, pistol or shotshell - they have the means and don't want to spend the time. One shoot a 50BMG using factory ammunition - another shoots lots of 28 gauge and throws the empties away. Point being - they will be the ones behind you at the gun show paying the price for something they want.

Until supply catches up with demand, or those thinking an apocalypse is about to happen stop buying ten lifetimes of normal usage of ammunition, don't expect things to drop too dramatically - but hopefully those hoarders will eventually run our of money and supplies will be allowed to catch up again.

Perfect case in point - the local Gander has everything on the shelf at very high prices (above msrp) - but the shelves are full. Wally world still has their lower prices on the shelves - but they are empty. Plenty of ammo available, just some folks won't pay, so it sits

 

[Hammerhead6814]

"Citation, please, or I'm done arguing with you. "

You want me to cite the second page of the thread? Okay.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRICE GOUGING!


Prices are set by the BUYERS, not the sellers.

If people are buying at a price you think is too high YOU are the one that's wrong and the higher price is the RIGHT price.


That's how free market economics works.

If you don't like the price, don't buy. Period.



The term "Price Gouging" is a dishonest term created by the Frankfurt School Marxists and is a classic part of Critical Theory of Marxism.

Go read THIS and then come back here and tell me all about Price Gouging.

Here, an article by the same author (Thomas Sowell) on the subject (since an entire book is a lot to read).

Also, where are your sources? None of them state that Price Gouging is a Marxist idea. Hell, they don't actually state anything to the effect of this conversation. Also, were bent out of shape? Didn't you just capitalize a whole sentence and start screaming Marxism?

Negotiating with dealers is pointless. I've gotten "Would you rather be known as a shrewd customer or a cheapsake" more often than "Okay let's talk". In fact it hasn't been since last fall, before Nov. 4th, that dealers were willing to talk to people. These day's it's the just finger and that's that.

Here's a definition for you:

"Price gouging is a term for a seller pricing much higher than is considered reasonable or fair."

Prices aren't reasonable, and they aren't fair. Ergo, Price Gouging.

I've yet to hear anything on dealers lying about the supply or their prices. Apparently it's easy enough to look over that when your screaming "Marxist" and "Socialist" loud enough.

You don't have to worry about coding Price Gouging into law, Florida for one already did that.

What your forgetting oneounceload is this: Price Fixing. Kind of like what Gas companies do when one company see's another raise or lower its prices. Pour Boy's Oil, in Kansa City, MO, basis their prices off what Quick Trip charges for example. QT goes up, so do they, QT goes down, they do to. To exactly the same price. That is what dealers are doing now. Great Guns in Liberty, MO, has Winchester .45 ACP for the same exact price that The Armory in Kearney, MO, has. $23 for hollow-point. Two different dealers, same price. You'll find the same deal down the road in Claycomo, at Show Me Shooters.

 

[Justin]

"Citation, please, or I'm done arguing with you. "

You want me to cite the second page of the thread? Okay.

I'm fairly certain that Zund was asking you to cite your source for your claim that John Locke invented or used the term "price gouging."

Negotiating with dealers is pointless. I've gotten "Would you rather be known as a shrewd customer or a cheapsake" more often than "Okay let's talk". In fact it hasn't been since last fall, before Nov. 4th, that dealers were willing to talk to people. These day's it's the just finger and that's that.

When it's a seller's market, the seller can tell you to take a hike. That's the nature of business. At the local gun shows around here, even after the sunset of the AWB, there was one guy who always had a table-full of magazines. Every gun show, he'd have magazines laid out on the table for CZ-75 style pistols with a price tag of $150 on them. Every gun show, I would approach him and make him a fair-market offer on those magazines and he'd turn me down.

Idiot didn't realize that had he been willing to sell them to me for market value, he probably could have sold me in excess of $300 worth of magazines. Sucks to be him.

Here's a definition for you:

"Price gouging is a term for a seller pricing much higher than is considered reasonable or fair."

Prices aren't reasonable, and they aren't fair. Ergo, Price Gouging.

This is a fine example of the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. On top if this, your definition is sloppy. Who gets to define "reasonable" or "fair?" Is it the gun dealer who, when setting the price of his ammunition must take into account his wholesale costs, transportation costs, table fee for space at the gun show, lunch, time spent there, and a bit of profit for himself? Or is it someone else? A legislator who knows nothing of business? A possible buyer who knows nothing of business?

 

[oneounceload]

Prices aren't reasonable, and they aren't fair. Ergo, Price Gouging.

BASED on what? I have already mentioned that I have ammo from 20 years ago that costs more than today's prices. With 20 years of inflation, increased taxes/insurances/salaries, etc. For a price to be unreasonable or unfair, it has to have a base line. And the further back you go, and factor in inflation over the years, prices today, considering the huge demand and lower supply, are not bad at all.

as to FL:

Florida Statute 501.160 states that during a state of emergency, it is unlawful to sell, lease, offer to sell, or offer for lease essential commodities, dwelling units, or self-storage facilities for an amount that grossly exceeds the average price for that commodity during the 30 days before the declaration of the state of emergency, unless the seller can justifying the price by showing increases in its prices or market trends. Examples of necessary commodities are food, ice, gas, and lumber.

ammunition doesn't make the list, nor is there a declared emergency.

law of supply and demand
The economic theorem that in a free market supply and demand will establish an equilibrium for price and quantity. Increases in price tend to increase quantity supplied and decrease quantity demanded. Decreases in price have the opposite effect. Increases in supply or decreases in demand tend to reduce price, while decreases in supply or increases in demand tend to increase price.

....from: http://www.yourdictionary.com/business/law-of-supply-and-demand



You just want something for cheap - great, we all do.....but it isn't happening - not right now, and not for a while. Costs are up, prices are up. Demand is up, prices are up.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

Ah, thanks Justin/

Here you go.

And oneounceload, I'd like to see some sources for your prices twenty years ago. Also, I'd like to see some math to what you said on page 2.

I'd also like to see some information on how I want "something for cheap". Who doesn't want to see reasonable prices?

Conveniently, my points on price fixing, dealer's being unwilling to negotiate, and well just about everything on page 2 have been ignored for the standard Glenn Beck approach to questioning whether or not I'm some kind of socialist. Great.

 

[Robert]

my points on price fixing, dealer's being unwilling to negotiate

Having worked in retail for a number of years I can say that not every dealer has an ability to negotiate prices. Manufactures routinely set a price that is the absolute minimum you can charge for a product and to go below that risks your ability to sell their product. I worked for a sporting goods store for a while behind the gun counter and have heard this time and time again. But the honest truth is that the firearms we sold were so close to cost that we only made about 3% on a sale. That is not much profit at all. Were we somehow price fixing or gouging because we chose to sell a fire arm for a meager profit?

And I am thankful every day that I left that job behind me.

 

[Justin]

Ah, thanks Justin/

Here you go.

How very odd.

Conveniently, my points on price fixing, dealer's being unwilling to negotiate, and well just about everything on page 2 have been ignored for the standard Glenn Beck approach to questioning whether or not I'm some kind of socialist. Great.

"Price fixing" =/= "Price gouging"

Price fixing means that the business owners are colluding together in order to artificially fix prices at a higher-than-market rate. If you have any real evidence that your local dealers are in cahoots to artificially raise prices, why are you posting about it here, rather than getting on the horn to your state's Attorney General's office?

Otherwise, if their prices are all so unreasonable it seems to me that you have struck upon a possible market for reasonably priced ammunition. Perhaps you could start a company making ammo, undercut the prices that the dealers at the gun shows, gun stores, and online are charging, and make a killing while selling ammo to people for the price that you know in your heart to be fair.

I'd also like to see some information on how I want "something for cheap". Who doesn't want to see reasonable prices?

Define "reasonable." Does your definition of "reasonable" take into account the overhead costs that I've listed above? Does it take into account the cost to the dealer to restock his supply after he's sold out? Can you prove what percentage of the price of a given box of ammo is just pure profit?

 

[oneounceload]

I have the ammo boxes in my drawer with the price stickers still on them.

Also, I'd like to see some math to what you said on page 2.

As far as??? salaries being less 20 years ago? - costs being higher today?

This same thing comes up every time there's a spike in gasoline., etc. everyone cries gouging -but it isn't. Higher raw material costs, coupled with increased fixed/variable costs in other areas makes the price go up....and as long as demand from folks who think they need to have ten lifetimes supply of ammunition is strong, prices will not come down, nor should they.

The only way a company or government can control supply and demand is to artificially inflate or deflate prices. If you let the market work, it settles down and gets to a "norm".

 

[ilbob]

How much do you think is attributable to the FOID and how much is just overpricing?

I don't know. The FOID card is not really an issue. The miserable waiting period is. You can't pickup a gun at the show so you are trapped into going and picking it up later.

I am guessing that eliminates a lot of impulse buying because of the lack of immediate gratification. Dealers who sell fewer guns might be inclined to want to make more per gun.

If you don't like the prices, buy elsewhere.

The dealers must be selling something because they keep coming back.

Ironically, out of state buyers (of long guns) are exempt from both the FOID card and waiting period.

 

[Justin]

What your forgetting oneounceload is this: Price Fixing. Kind of like what Gas companies do when one company see's another raise or lower its prices. Pour Boy's Oil, in Kansa City, MO, basis their prices off what Quick Trip charges for example. QT goes up, so do they, QT goes down, they do to. To exactly the same price. That is what dealers are doing now. Great Guns in Liberty, MO, has Winchester .45 ACP for the same exact price that The Armory in Kearney, MO, has. $23 for hollow-point. Two different dealers, same price. You'll find the same deal down the road in Claycomo, at Show Me Shooters.

Uh, price matching is not price fixing, either. In fact, it's generally the opposite, as places that advertise that they will match a competitor's price are doing so in order to entice you to go there. This will go on until the retailers reach a point at which it would be unprofitable for any of them to lower prices further as they would be then selling at a loss, and hence an equilibrium is reached where prices are similar or the same.

But to claim that this is "price fixing" strains credulity.

 

[Jeff White]

Prices are set by the market (at least until we have a central federal agency setting them). This so called price gouging goes on in every retail endeavor.

I have a friend who is a used car dealer. He has a couple trucks on his back lot that were bad deals he made, he's got too much money tied up in them and since he's in business to make money, they sit. And they will sit until the market changes and he can get what he has to from them, maybe just to break even or until he decides to take a loss and sell them at what the market price is now just to get them off his lot. I would guess many people here would say he's price gouging.

Lets apply this to the local gun dealer who has cash tied up in inventory. Perhaps he's gotten into much of his inventory at inflated prices, the reason doesn't matter, maybe he bought more then he could sell during the panic buying of the past year. Many of you here think that he should just sell those guns at a loss because the market has changed. Just because he can now replace a gun at a cheaper wholesale price doesn't mean it's a good idea to sell one he has in stock at a loss. How many of you guys screaming price gouging would do that?

If you want to affect the market, just do what you are doing, don't buy at the higher price and wait for the price to come down. Sooner or later the dealer will have to bring his prices down to sell anything.

You affect the market even more then the vendor does. Something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. Don't buy if you don't like the prices. Sooner or later they vendors will be forced to lower their prices just to keep some cash flowing through the business. Now it might be a going out of business sale when the prices come down, but they will come down if the community fails to pay the so called inflated prices.

 

[Justin]

In case you're interested in dropping the dime on the dealers who are fixing prices, you can contact the Illinois Attorney General's office here.

In fact, here's the press release about a case where the IL AG's office took legal action against some people who were fixing prices.

 

[oneounceload]

Just to veer for a second in response to the oil analogy - here in FL, the taxes on a gallon of gas are 51.6 cents per gallon. The retailer, wholesaler and the driller/refiner don't make that much combined. Who's REALLY gouging? The government.

Sorry to the Mods for the veer......

 

[bababooey32]

Prices aren't reasonable, and they aren't fair. Ergo, Price Gouging.

Sorry. This is fallacious reasoning. First of all, we've demonstrated that current prices are lower then they were (in real terms) 40 years ago. It's hard to claim that prices are unreasonable when they are lower.

Second, who gets to decide what a fair price is? Seems to me if the shelves are bare, there are more people that think prices are fair then those that don't. While you may disagree, you have been significantly outvoted. That does not constitute price gouging.

Finally, price gouging occurs either when there is a monopoly or when there is collusion. There can't be price gouging when there is competition. If even one dealer doesn't raise prices, the other dealers attempting to "gouge" will lose all their business. A seller can never set prices artificially high in a competetive market. There is ample competition in ammunition sales: local shops, internet, private sales.

Now, your local shop might charge a higher price then the internet because he gets to charge you for providing immediacy. You get the ammo, in your hands NOW. With the internet you get a better price, but you have to wait. It may even be on back order. This is not price gouging, but paying for liquidity. This occurs in every market around the world. It is a very researched area in financial economics, and the premiums associated with liquidity (immediacy) are meaningful and large. So it is expected that the local shop with shelf full of ammo (that is in high demand) can charge more then Georgia Arms who has theirs on back order for 3 months.

 

[oneounceload]

awesome response bababooey32.......wish I could have said that right from the beginning....SPOT ON!

 

[shotgunjoel]

Where do you here about those gun shows? I live around there, and didn't hear about them.