Illinois Gun Shows Outrageous Prices

[ilbob]

It is in perhaps poor taste but I was importing an anecdote from a different venue.

Specifically, a vendor mis-stating a published MSRP when specifically asked.

But since we're apparently all agreed that such a thing constitutes deceptive trade practices, there's little to argue about.



They can also ask the seller what the published MSRP is (assuming current production) and if the seller lies by inflating the figure by a factor of three while stating the number is a published factory MSRP, the buyer has been swindled. If he simply coughs up the funds without asking any questions, he's just paid the price for his ignorance. There's a big difference between the two.

Again, increasing a price through deception is called "swindling".

Increasing a price through simply asking for it is called market dynamics. One is illegal, the other isn't.

I noticed that you chose not to quote the part of my post where I said:

IMO, at least from a moral perspective, everyone, buyer and seller alike, have an obligation not to lie to each other.

How is this swindling? The buyer has no right to expect the seller to tell him the MSRP. If what you are suggesting happened, the seller is lying, and that is morally wrong, but to claim a mere lie is a crime is pushing it a bit.

 

[Justin]

If you can't see the difference between someone lying about MSRP (dishonest, shady) and paying for something with counterfeit money (federal felony, debases currency) I'm not sure I can help you.

Of course, the bulk of your arguments are plainly straw men, which was pointed out earlier in the thread.

If a gun show dealer is being dishonest, you have many options available to you including:
-Abstaining from doing business with them.
-Telling the gun show promoter that one of the dealers is acting unethically.
-Telling your friends to avoid doing business with that dealer.
-Telling others to avoid doing business with that dealer.
-Posting poor reviews and/or complaint threads about that dealer on internet gun forums in order to warn others to avoid doing business with them.
-Filing complaints with organizations such as the BBB.
-Sending complaint information to websites such as The Consumerist.

Any number of those actions should satisfy your burning desire to be the Consumer Avenger©.

 

[gyvel]

There is NO such thing as price gouging. YOU have the choice to NOT spend your money there. When these folks, who bought stuff at high prices, are not able to sell, they will have choices to make - lower their prices and turn their inventory, or sit on it and hope for some uninformed person to come along. THAT is free-market economics. Perhaps you folks would like the government to set the prices for you????????

Just remember that the next time a hurricane comes through and gasoline, batteries, plywood, bottled water, medical supplies etc., etc. prices go up 3-4x. After all, isn't that how capitalism works?

 

[Jeff White]

Just remember that the next time a hurricane comes through and gasoline, batteries, plywood, bottled water, medical supplies etc., etc. prices go up 3-4x. After all, isn't that how capitalism works?

Yes my friend that is exactly how capitalism works. if you didn't have the common sense to prepare in advance then you are pretty much stuck paying what the market price is during the crisis. You pay those inflated prices during the aftermath of a hurricane or other disaster simply because there is a bigger demand for the product then there is a supply.

 

[PT1911]

I was at a gun show last weekend and here is what I saw that completely baffled me.... I sat and watched prospective buyers look at several GREAT DEALS no guns at my friend's table... AR's for under 700 (NEW/ DPMS sportical) S&W was $999 and bushmaster was $999....AK under 500 (NEW with tapco trigger and mags) Kimber lightweight .308 NEW for 800... etc... Used winchester model 70 for like 350 or 400 and they would pass because, and I quote, "those guns should be more expensive than that, something is wrong with them" they would then walk away to the next table and buy an SKS for 500 bucks. this happened on multiple occasions...

Hell, earlier this year that happened with a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 with magpull kit for something like 950 NEW.. guy argued with the shop owner that the gun must be shot out, when told otherwise he was quick to call bull**** and state "those guns are selling for 1500 dollars, I am no idiot... and magpul is an aftermarket company. No new guns come with those."

so sad... guess I will have to take up their slack and partake of the good deals.

 

[gyvel]

Yes my friend that is exactly how capitalism works. if you didn't have the common sense to prepare in advance then you are pretty much stuck paying what the market price is during the crisis. You pay those inflated prices during the aftermath of a hurricane or other disaster simply because there is a bigger demand for the product then there is a supply.

Sorry, but that's what I call opportunism, aka price gouging, aka pure unbridled greed.

Several years ago in Phoenix, there was an unforeseen problem with one of the delivery pipelines for gasoline, causing a temporary shortage. What happened? A bunch of gas stations immediately raised their prices to $5.00 a gallon. Now, according to you, I guess that's how capitalism should work?

 

[bababooey32]

Now, according to you, I guess that's how capitalism should work?

It's not capitalism, per se, but the basic economic principle of supply and demand. If the supply of a good that is in demand is interupted, one would expect the price to go up. That good has become more scarce and therefore can command a premium. It has nothing to do with capitalism, but the basic forces of economics.

Sorry, but that's what I call opportunism, aka price gouging, aka pure unbridled greed.

Those three terms are not synonymous and trying to equate them diminishes your argument. Price gouging is a fabricated term with virtually no real meaning. Opportunism is not a bad thing. Opportunism is what allwos entrepreneurs to succeed. Opportunism is how arbitrage opportunities are discovered (which generally keeps prices lower). Greed is what inspires entrepreneurs and inventors. Without greed, I can assure you we'd be trading letters scratched onto tree-bark rather than posting instantly to a worldwide forum.

Several years ago in Phoenix, there was an unforeseen problem with one of the delivery pipelines for gasoline, causing a temporary shortage. What happened? A bunch of gas stations immediately raised their prices to $5.00 a gallon.

Once that supply problem was known, the public would understandably want to go get a full tank of gas (before supplies run out). That would increase demand while supply was dropping. By your post, you are suggesting that purveryors of gasoline should be UNABLE to respond to the market messages they are receiving and must (be forced to??) keep their prices unchanged? That is insane. :banghead: Gary Becker and Richard posner put it thusly:

...an unanticipated curtailment of supply is likely to produce abnormal profits. The curtailment reduces output, which results in an increase in price as consumers bid against each other for the reduced output. In addition, the reduction in output is likely to reduce the sellers' unit costs; the reason is that sellers normally sell in a region in which their costs are increasing--if they were decreasing, the sellers would have an incentive to expand output further. With both price rising and cost falling, profits are likely to zoom upward.

Source: Becker-Posner Blog (Gary Becker is a Nobel Prize winning economist at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and Richard Posner is a Judge on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals and a Law Professor at the University of Chicago)

 

[Justin]

A bunch of gas stations immediately raised their prices to $5.00 a gallon. Now, according to you, I guess that's how capitalism should work?

Yes, it is. In the event of a supply disruption, prices go up. Not only is this a matter of basic economic law, the upside of the whole thing is that it's a logical, self-correcting rationing system with built in events that alert both supplier and consumer that something is wrong.

If gasoline is suddenly $5 a gallon due to a strained supply chain, people are much less likely to buy a full tank, and only purchase the minimum they need to get by. The result is that if everyone does this, there is gasoline available to more people.

Does paying a higher price for a commodity suck? Yes, absolutely.

But it's a lot better than getting to the gas station only to find out that someone with a bunch of 50 gallon drums bought up the entire supply at $2.50/gallon and that no more will be available until the supply chain gets running again.

 

[Ala Dan]

Most gun show prices are down right absurd~!

A bunch of old farts sitting a'round eating cookies and drinking
milk; with OVER PRICED weaponary, and other junk that nobody
is going too pay the prices that they are asking.

 

[Robert]

I propose a new law, we can call it the Anti-Dog Eat Dog Law. Once this law passes we will take money from all the price gouging companies and give it to the companies that are struggling to make it. We will do away with competition and make it so that all companies are equal as well as their prices. If there are two or more companies in a given region doing t he same work then the larger companies must move to a different region as to give the little guy a chance. All profit will be done away with as companies should work for the good of their fellow man, not money. For example, if a railroad company is operating in Colorado they can not run more trains than the railroad companies in the surrounding states, and they can not charge any more for service than any of the other companies in an attempt to make a profit. Or is the owner of an iron works invents a new type of metal he must give over that metal to all you ask on an equal basis. He will be limited to a certain tonnage that he can deliver to one customer at one time to ensure that everyone gets an equal share. Also, no company will be allowed to expand to other areas of operation. Oil companies can not own or run railroads, or iron works can not own or operate coal or iron mines. This will ensure that no one company has a monopoly on goods and services.
By implementing this system everyone will be fair and equal, profit will be forgone in order to serve our fellow man and greed and price gouging will cease.
Let me know what you think so I can get the ball rolling on this.

 

[maskedman504]

This is one of the more interesting gunshow threads I have read on these boards.

I went to wikipedia.org to read about capitalism. I thought this was funny:

"There is no consensus on capitalism nor how it should be used as an analytical category."

In the 21st century when almost every American and most folks around the world have access to the internet I would love to know where all this "insider" information is.

Interestingly enough about 24.7% of the world pop has internet access- about 73.9% of Americans do, while only 6.7% of Africans do.

Sorry for the off topic.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

 

[NGIB]

I'll present a different approach on why prices are so high at gun shows. The biggest "promoter" here in GA has blacklisted dealers for selling at reasonable prices. My local gun store is one of these dealers that got blacklisted. Basically, the "pirates" complained and said they'd quit renting tables at the show.

The promoter caved and told a few dealers that they weren't welcome anymore...

 

[welldoya]

Actually your analogy to increased prices during hurricanes doesn't hold water. Not in Florida anyway and I think we've got everybody beat when it come to experience with hurricanes.
A state law goes into affect before and after hurricanes that makes it illegal to raise the price on any necessity without substantiation. And people WILL turn you in.
There were several gas stations around here that got hit with big fines after Ivan for raising the price for no reason other than they just wanted to make a bigger profit.

 

[bababooey32]

Actually your analogy to increased prices during hurricanes doesn't hold water. Not in Florida anyway and I think we've got everybody beat when it come to experience with hurricanes.
A state law goes into affect before and after hurricanes that makes it illegal to raise the price on any necessity without substantiation. And people WILL turn you in.
There were several gas stations around here that got hit with big fines after Ivan for raising the price for no reason other than they just wanted to make a bigger profit.

I would hestitate to cite government action as evidence of best practices relative to economics. There are ample studies out there demonstrating how "anti-gouging" statutes hurt businesses and consumers alike.

 

[Jeff White]

A state law goes into affect before and after hurricanes that makes it illegal to raise the price on any necessity without substantiation. And people WILL turn you in.

It's just that kind of government interference in the market that causes problems for the economy as a whole. In that case the government is setting prices artificially low for the supply of the necessities.

I suppose many of the members in this thread would like to see the government mandate prices at gun shows. Who would you suggest fix the prices? A gun show price czar in the Whitehouse? A regional gun show price commission? The NRA, GOA or Second Amendment Foundation? One of the manufacturers associations? Who do you trust to be fair?

The fact is that you can't trust anyone who engages in trying to fix prices in the market to be fair. The market is the market and it works best when left alone. You affect the market by your decision not to pay what you consider to be inflated prices. It's not the market's fault that others disagree with you and pay those prices. It's the nature of the market. When enough people decide that gun show prices are too high and stop buying, then the prices will come down. That's how it works. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Werewolf]

IMO, we will be our own worst enemy in closing them down

I find it necessary to ask: so what if they close down? What's the downside to there never ever being another gun show?

I haven't been to one in years. Stopped going because I got tired of all the crap many here have referenced.

Gun show dealers in my experience prey on the new gun guy's lack of knowledge, a lady's fears, a young man's spirit of adventure, a mom wanting a means to protect her children, and I consider that despicable. I can't think of a single gun dealer that I have spoken with at a gun show over the years that I'd feel comfortable even having a beer with. Those guys are just a step above carnies in the social hierarchy as far as I am concerned.

When folks ask me about the local OKC gun shows on occasion I tell 'em, leave your money and credit cards at home. Enjoy the sights, the people and if you want to find out what if feels like to be conned then spend a few minutes acting like you're interested in buying a gun.

What I found odd was that in general it was only the gun and ammo dealers and Nazi memorabilia freaks that came across as low life scum. Those tables selling jewelry, accessories, clothing etc were in almost all cases manned by those proud to be selling their products and doing it honestly and ethically.

Maybe there are states where my experience isn't the norm but my state of Oklahoma isn't one of them.

If gun shows go the way of the buggy whip - I for one - won't miss them at all.

 

[Autolycus]

Tag for later.

 

[gyvel]

If there are two or more companies in a given region doing the same work then the larger companies must move to a different region as to give the little guy a chance.

Ask the opinion of any small business owner in a small town about that after they went out of business when Walmart moved in.

And, as far as any arguments about opportunism, price gouging, circular logic, whatever, that is why we enacted anti-trust laws in this country. Unrestricted capitalism eventually results in a monopoly, and the owner of a monopoly can charge whatever he darn well pleases. I doubt many of you out there would like that.

 

[Isher]

Much Fun -

For those who wish further enlightenment,

Here is Mr. George Orwell's "Animal Farm", ca. 1945:

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/index.html

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

isher

 

[Jaybird78]

Last year one of my coworkers had money burning a hole in his pocket. He went to the show and bought a mix-master ar that looks like my kid took an angle grinder to the bottom of the bolt carrier ("reliability package"). The seller told him it was brand new. None the less I helped him sight it in and it is maybe 70% reliable firing. He paid $800 for this gun show beauty queen.

I flat out told him he got taken. A sucker born every minute.

 

[DiverDown]

I went to the gun show last month here in Fl.
Had to pay $8 just to find out everything was over priced.

Case in point a Ruger 10-22 for my wife.
Best price at the show was $300.

Walmart has them for $215 everyday price
Local gun shop $199 on sale. $240 everyday.

After leaving the show I drove to walmart...........

 

[gyvel]

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Sounds like a lot of the moderators on Gunboards

 

[david636]

I agree with what most have posted about the high prices at gun show. However, I still attend a many a possible. For me its place where I can look at a lot of guns at the same time, see if there is anything new, and just get an idea about pricing.

This weekend there will be a large gun show in St. Charles, Missouri. I’m in the market for a Smith and Wesson MP 15 and/or an MP15-22, and a Glock 34. I already know the prices for these firearms from visiting the local gun shops, but before I buy I’ll visit the gun show. I doubt if anyone there will be able to beat the prices I’ve already seen, but someone at the gun show might offer some accessories I need, and you just never know, someone might actually want to make a deal.

For me, the $8.00 entry price is worth it.

 

[chuckusaret]

There is a gun show at least monthly here in West Palm Beach Florida and at one time it was the place to buy guns and accessories. The crowds at these shows peaked in March of this year and have since dropped from the thousands of people in attendance to the 100's of people at the last show. Last month's show was more of a flea market with gun tables. You could buy woman's makeup, shoes, pots & pans, get your picture taken with a Bush look a like, get a foot massage, toys, and puzzles or have an overpriced nasty Philadelphia Cheese Steak hoagie with an overpriced nasty cup of cheap coffee. There was one ammo table where the guy was selling reloaded ammo for more than overpriced name brand ammo at other tables. One local gun shop was selling LCP's like mad for $340 which was a $70 markup over his costs, the dealer at the adjoining table purchased all of the guys LCP's and marked them up to $400. Needless to say he failed to sell any.

There is a gun show this week end and I am quite sure we will see a smaller crowd than last month. I believe the old saying that "You can screw some of the people some of the time, but you can't screw all of the people all of the time" has now taken effect.

Will I go? Yes, what else is there to do on Saturday or Sunday, but I will leave my check book at home

 

[gyvel]

There is a gun show at least monthly here in West Palm Beach Florida

Boy, that's a shame about what happened to the WPB Show. 25 years ago, when I lived in Florida, that was one of the premier shows in the state. You could find some really nice collectibles at fairly reasonable prices then. Of course, it was only twice a year, like the Lakeland show.