I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to revolver calibers that begin with "4"

[Frandy]

I am truly corn-fuzed...

1. If a revolver shoots .44 Magnum, does that mean it also shoots .44 Specials?
2. And is .44 Magnum the same as .44 Remington Magnum?
3. Is there really such a thing as a .45 "Long" Colt, or is it just .45 Colt?
4. And what's the power of these various "4s"? Relative to each other, that is...

Thanks!

 

[41 Redhawk]

1. If a revolver shoots .44 Magnum, does that mean it also shoots .44 Specials?

Yes

2. And is .44 Magnum the same as .44 Remington Magnum?

Yes

3. Is there really such a thing as a .45 "Long" Colt, or is it just .45 Colt?

They are the same thing. The real and proper name is .45 Colt

4. And what's the power of these various "4s"? Relative to each other, that is...

In factory loads the 44 mag is more powerful than the 45 colt. If using a stong gun such as a Ruger, the 45 colt can be handloaded to equal or exceed the 44 mag

 

[Standing Wolf]

The real and proper name is .45 Colt

Actually, the original name, if I'm not mistaken, was ".45 Long Colt."

The .41 magnum wasn't mentioned. It's a .44 magnum-length cartridge developed in the 1960s as a middle ground between the .347 and .44 magnums. The .40 Smith & Wesson round wasn't mentioned, either; unfortunately, I don't know much about it.

 

[Frandy]

I thank you both. A bit less ingnorant now!

 

[41 Redhawk]

Actually, 45 colt was the first name. After some confusion caused by the military, the long was informally added. Go to the forums at handloads.com and do a search on 45 long colt or 45 colt. There is lots of discussion about it there.

As standing wolf mentioned there is the 40 S&W which is a short 10mm auto. They have a .400 bullet and were developed for semi autos

Then there is 41 mag with it's .410 bullet.

Then there is the 454 Casull which is a stretched 45 colt and the new 460 from S&W which is stretched even more. Your head hurt yet!

 

[cookekdjr]

I think originally ".45 Long Colt" was ".45 Colt". Later, there was a little-known cartridge, the ".45 Short Colt". Since that time, ".45 Colt" been known as the ".45 Long Colt".
-David

 

[unspellable]

45's & 44's

First came the 45 Colt

Second, the 45 Smith & Wesson, nicknamed the 45 Schofield

Third, the 45 Government, nicknamed the 45 Short Colt

Fourth, the 1909 Colt 45

Fifth, the 45 ACP, circa 1911, the switch from revolver to self loader.

Folowing the introduction of the 45 Government, the 45 Colt was nicknamed the 45 Long Colt to distinguish it from the 45 Government or "45 Short Colt. When the 45 Government hit the civilian market the ammo companies began labeling it 45 Short Colt.

Today the ammo companies load the 45 Short Colt but label it and head stamp it as the 45 Schofield even though it does not have the proper dimensions for the Schofield. (The rim is too narrow.)

The true 45 Smith & Wesson or Schofield and the 1909 Colt 45 have wider rims to work better with a star extractor. The 45 Government or 45 Short Colt and the 45 Smith & Wesson have the same case length. The 1909 Colt 45 has a case length a tad longer than the 45 Colt.

The 454 Casull is a tad longer than the 1909 and runs much higher pressure than the others.

Which of these cartridges will work in which gun gets a bit complicated. The 45 Government or Short Colt will work in any of the guns. If you load a SAA Colt with the true 45 Schofield, you will only be able to get three in due to the wider rim. The same problem arose later with one of the early Colt DA's. A 45 Colt will work in the 1909 new Service (Sights will be a bit off.) or in a 454 Casull. using the narrow rimmed cartridges in a revolver with a star extractor raises the issue of jamming up the gun by getting a case under the extractor. You have to be careful when unloading. You can avoid trouble by pointing the barrel straight up when extracting.

In the 44, you have the 44 Russian, 44 Special, 44 Magnum and 445 SuperMag all of which differ only in case length and operating pressure. Any of the shorter can be fired in any of the longer. They all have the same rim.

 

[Marshall]

Don't forget the .480 Ruger.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Unspellable nailed it. That was an excellent overview.

A couple of clarifications:

1. The so-called "44" cartridges are all actually 43 caliber. The .44 Russian/Special/Magnum family have .429 major diameter barrels and take .429-.431 bullets. The .44-40 (aka the .44WCF) can take anywhere from a .426 to a .430 depending on the particular gun. Original spec on the .44WCF was a .4265 major diameter barrel, IIRC. Many modern 44-40 guns, however, use .429 barrels, just like the rest of the .44 family. Thus, there are dual cylinder revolvers available with .429 barrels but chambered for .44-40/.44 Special (Colt SAA, for example) or even .44-40/.44 Mag (Rugers).

2. There is another .40 caliber round not mentioned above. It is the .38-40, originally known as the .38WCF. Despite its name, it is actually .401 caliber, just like the 10 mm and .40S&W.

 

[cortez kid]

I'm on 2 waiting lists for the 460 S&W. Also is there such a thing as a 45 winchester?

 

[Standing Wolf]

I think we need a family of .46 cartridges just to differentiate them from all the .44 and .45 cartridges. After we've created plenty of needless confusion in the .46 slot, we can start in on the .47s, and then...

 

[Tony Mig]

Also is there such a thing as a 45 winchester?

Yeas...it's called the .45 Winchester Magnum.

 

[bakert]

Yes, you can shoot .44 Sp. in a .44 magnum. As to the .45, whether you call it .45 Colt or .45 Long Colt it's one helluva cartridge in the right revolver. If you don't believe me read John Linebaugh's take on it.
Baker

 

[BigG]

I'm waiting for a 46 ACP. Why, you ask? Because it's bigger than a 45 ACP. Thank you, Unspellable, for a great summary!

 

[Johnny Guest]

Aha!

Y'all have left out one cartridge which was pretty popular at one time: .41 Long Colt. Colt Single Action Army/Peacemaker was chambered in this cartridge, as was the Colt Double Action called the Thunderer - - A slightly more robust version of the .38 Lightning. And the Army Special, forerunner of the Official Police. It was a true medium bore - - Significantly larger than the various .38s, with a blunt 200 gr bullet. It was initially an outside lubricated, heel-type bullet, and later an inside lubed projectile. Low velocity, and actually disposing less energy and "shocking power" than the .38 Special.

Oh, yeah - - There were a number of revolvers chambered for the .41 rimfire, too - - Colt's "Cloverleaf" House Pistol and the Root Sidehammer, to name two. The cartridge was most famously fired in the Remington Double Derringer. In all arms it was a really weak sister. It would seldom sink a bullet base into a utillity pole.

Both the above cartridges are throughly obsolete now. While they have seen limited production in the last 30 years, both are practically impossible to locate in shooting quantities for affordable prices. (At least you CAN handload the .41 LC, though.)

Best,
Johnny

 

[Majic]

You also left out the .454 and a boat load of proprietary loads such as DW's Supermags.

 

[unspellable]

454 & DW

Look above, the 454 Casull and the 445 SuperMag are both mentioned.

 

[shermacman]

Add the .45 GAP to the list, another solution in search of a problem.

 

[Frandy]

More good info and I appreciate it!

Frandy

 

[Sport45]

"A 45 Colt will work in the 1909 new Service (Sights will be a bit off.)"

How did the power (pressure) compare between a 1909 Colt and a .45 Colt? My Brother-in-Law has a Colt Model 1909 that he shoots occasionally. Of course, he always shoots .45 Colt. Is this the proper load for his gun or may he be damaging it?

 

[unspellable]

45 Colt in the Colt New Service Model 1909

The Colt New Service Model 1909 was intended to use the 45 Colt as a secondary backup cartridge in the event the 1909 Colt 45 cartridge was not at hand.

There are only two drawbacks to using the 45 Colt in the 1909, the risk of getting a rim under the extractor, and point of impact will be slightly off. As far as stress or pressure is concerned there is no problem with using the 45 Colt loaded to level I. (Commercial factory load or equivalent)

I'd highly recommend NOT using 45 Colt level II loads. (As specified in loading manuals for Blackhawk or single shot pistols only.)

Now, another consideration. There is a lot of collector interest in the 1909 New Service. If it's in really nice original condition I'd hesitate to shoot it at all. If the bore, finish, and such is only fair, then go ahead and shoot it.

My 1909 has been refinished somewhere along the line, but has a very crispy bore and the refinish is 98% so it's the ideal shooter piece.

 

[Sport45]

Thanks Unspellable. I'll have to have another look at the 1909 next time we visit my wife's sister. As I recall the original finish is in fair condition and it has the US Government markings. It might have the engraved name of the officer that carried it. Would that have been common practice then?

 

[unspellable]

engraved name

It was not the general practice to engrave names on the 1909's. That's not to say that nobody ever did it. Since it was government property the powers that be probably took a dim view of it. It might have been engraved after it was sold on the civilian market as surplus.

 

[J Miller]

unspellable,

Thank you for your excellent disertation on the various .45 caliber cartridges. I've gone round and round with quite a few people about this one on other forums. The way you put it was much better than how I said it. So with your permission I'll copy your post, with credits to you, for future reference.

One comment though. The use of the current .45 Colt cartridges in DA revolvers such as the S&W 25s and Colt Annacondas doesn't cause near the problem with empties falling under the extractor star as it used to. Modern cases do have a bit larger, and more pronounced rim than the old semi balloon head cases did. It's still a good idea to point the muzzel up in the air when hitting the extractor rod though.
I have put near 8,000 rounds through my S&W 25-5 and have had maybe 2 cases slip under the extractor star. Both times I had the gun pointed muzzel down.

As to the power level between standard .45 Colt ammo, and the 1909 military ammo, both use a 250gr conical bullet. Only the 1909 round is loaded to 725 +/- 25 FPS (right off the side of the box). About a 125 fps slower than the .45 Colt. That's why the difference in impact between the two.

And just for giggles and grins, my 25-5 cylinder will hold 6 of the big rimmed 1909 rounds. Wish I had enough of them to do a thorough range test.


Joe

 

[unspellable]

45's

Yes., the 45 Colt has acquired a slightly wider rim over the years.

My information puts the 1909 bullet weight at 300 grains. But I've heard the 250 grain claim before too. I'm going to have to weigh one of my 1909 cartridges and see if I can tell which without tearing down the cartridge.

There doesn't seem to be much point in dropping the velocity without increasing the bullet weight. Or if thet did, why no just use the 45 S&W instead of coming up with a new case?

Of course in the area of cartridge developement the wheel has been re-invented many times.