IMT brass headstamp-confusion/misinformation?

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this brass who many seem to think is "worthless or dangerous" is in fact completely useable and safe with the RIght components. This is the same for any and all brass really which is all my point was, that the IMT brass is no different than any other case. With the right loading practices they can be used just fine. With the wrong practices they will have problems
I'll agree with that.
so my point is still valid that IMT cases are just another case and nothing more or less.
I'll disagree with this. "More or less" doesn't quit cover it for me. You have to take into consideration the difference in case capacity with a seated bullet (Which, IMHO, needs to be said vs M or L), and without pressure equipment or a lab to test our reloads, we are guessing. It may well be an educated guess, but a guess none the less.

These cases aren't nearly as bad as the cases in the other thread that have a large difference in capacity from the normal case. It looks to be minimal compared to those, but it is there, and must be accounted for. For those running light plinking/target loads it shouldn't be a problem with this brass, but for those running max.......
 
We have an Omega setup with multiple pressure transducers and ALOT of empty warehouse and field space. Anyway, I'm not advocating doing anything dangerous. I have been reloading and testing ballistics for the better part of the last decade and have yet to KB a gun despite sometimes loading hot. None of the loads I have listed are really wild and I wouldn't list anything wild without specifying "hey this is such and such"
By pushing the envelope I simply mean I use the tools at my disposal to test things outside of the normal realm.
Well that makes me feel a bit better, but we need to spell these things out carefully for the readers.
 
DeadEye9, do you use the handle "JeepHammer" on another forum?
No im not really on many forums. Only recently got into them as an added resource to my hobbies and so far I'm only on here, S&W and a couple automotive forums, but all with the same or combination of my same handle.
 
I'll agree with that.
I'll disagree with this. "More or less" doesn't quit cover it for me. You have to take into consideration the difference in case capacity with a seated bullet (Which, IMHO, needs to be said vs M or L), and without pressure equipment or a lab to test our reloads, we are guessing. It may well be an educated guess, but a guess none the less.

These cases aren't nearly as bad as the cases in the other thread that have a large difference in capacity from the normal case. It looks to be minimal compared to those, but it is there, and must be accounted for. For those running light plinking/target loads it shouldn't be a problem with this brass, but for those running max.......
I totally agree this is not a case I would use for a max load, so maybe I should have been more clear on that. My main point was really just that they are totally useable if done correctly. The reason for that being that after the 15th or so time someone blindly told me "you can't reload that, it'll blow up your guns" I was frustrated with the generaliation so made the post with my experiences. For those looking to load for 9mm major or make some max carry loads or something like that I would personally only use new or once fired commercial cases and not use them again after that major loading. This is why I never take any Brass from my pistol club after organized matches because some guys run crazy loads and the cases will be a gamble for sure.
 
This is why I never take any Brass from my pistol club after organized matches because some guys run crazy loads and the cases will be a gamble for sure.
I am very careful not to go behind the guys playing those games when I pick up brass. Usually it is pretty obvious when someone has stood in the same area near the table/cover and shot his factory ammo, vs running around the pit shooting, although nothing is guaranteed. After the eye test (Does it look like OF and does it look OK) when picking it up, my second level of safety with 9MM range bass is to scrap anything that fails my Wilson case gauge after sizing. It's always the case head area that fails to fit.
 
9mm brass is everywhere & it's also free and it doesn't have the drawbacks of the IMT brass. The 9mm cartridge is a high pressure cartridge with an extremely small case capacity for powder after the bullet has been seated. The IMT cases make that window even smaller. That step in the IMT cases is actually a double edged sword. Not only does it make the min/max pressure level window smaller, it makes the performance level of the IMT case have an extremely small window to function properly/safely.

Why the IMT cases separate:
It's a combination of work hardening of the brass and the extreme pressure differences the design of the interior of the IMT case creates coupled with the springback of the brass. When a round is fired in these 9mm semi-auto's the brass expands from the pressure of the load. It seals the chamber of the bbl. Everyone's seen soot on the side of the mouth of low pressure rounds that have been fired, that's from the brass not fully expanding/sealing the bbl. So the trigger is pulled, the prime lights the powder, the powder burns and that creates the pressure that expands the case to seal the bbl. As the pressure decreases the case shrinks letting go of the chamber walls and the slide pulls the spent case out of the chamber. The thicker web of the IMT brass is harder to expand than the thin case mouth. The end result is the slide is pulling on the case and the front thin area of the IMT case is still locked to the chamber and the back half of the IMT case is already free from the chamber. The end result is the brass separates at that point in the IMT case.

The OP don't do cup & says it means nothing to him. GOOD!!! I have no idea why he keeps posting hodgdons finding, they deal in cup which he doesn't use unless it suits his needs. Seeing how the OP only deals in psi's let's take a look at some data from the powder mfg's. All data (including the OP's is with a 4" bbl) and from the OP. winchester manual & allaint manual.

Op load/ 4.5gr ww231(4.75gr with 5% added) 124gr fmj 1090fps
ww load/4.5gr ww231 124gr fmj 1060fps 32,700psi

OP load/ 5.2gr ww231 (5.46gr with 5% added) 115gr hp 1178fps
ww load/ 4.8gr ww231 115gr hp 1120fps 32,100psi

OP load/6.4gr power pistol (6.73gr with 5% added) 124gr fmj 1133fps
Alliant load/ 6.6gr power pistol 124gr fmj 1233fps 34,000psi

The Op stated his 115gr load was only 30,300psi (post #5), that leaves the 2 124gr fmj loads to hit the 37,5000psi max he stated he hit in post #4. This tells me 2 things.

1. The case failed with the 115gr bullet/231 load. Here's why.
If you look at any and all published data for ww231 when psi value's are listed you will find that there is a min load listed with a psi # and a max load listed with a psi #. Typically for every 1/10gr you go above the minimum recommended load data with the 9mm/ww231 combo you will find a +/- 1,000psi gain in pressure. Here's a link to a ww reloading manual that has 6 different bullets listed for the ww231/9mm combo. The all have a min/max psi listing along with a min/max ww231 load listed in 1/10gr increments. It clearly show a +/- 1,000psi gain per 1/10gr of ww231 increase.

http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Winchester/Winchester1997.pdf

The OP's 115gr bullet load was over max with powder but his velocity a wash with the hodgdon velocity using the same bullet.
Hodgdon 5.1gr/1167fps
Op 5.46gr/1178fps
.36gr over max yet no velocity gain.
2. The case failed with the 124gr/pp load. Again over max load and this time a loss in velocity of 100fps.
Difference in hodgdon (same bullet) load vs op 115gr load ='s 9fps difference
Difference in hodgdon 125gr fmj load vs op 124gr fmj load ='s 2fps difference
Difference in ww 124gr fmj load vs op 124gr fmj load ='s 30fps difference
Loosing 100fps is huge.

Without getting into pressures I believe the hodgdon velocity #'s. Their 115gr bullet is the same as the op's and their 124gr fmj data mirrors the op's data.
Hodgdon 124gr fmj 4.8gr ww231 1088fps
op 124gr fmj 4.5gr ww231 (4.5 + 5% ='s .225gr) 4.5gr + .225gr ='s 4.725gr ww321 load 1090fps

The op had .36gr more ww231 for the 115gr load, was spot on for the 124grfmj/ww231 load and was over for the power pistol 124grfmj load. I have no reason not to believe his data. It clearly shows the IMT cases failed with 2 different loads. Namely the over charged 115gr load that didn't mange to gain any velocity and the 124gr power pistol load that was over charged the lost a bunch of velocity.

The IMT cases just aren't worth it. Heck if you look around you can find 1x 9mm brass for $90 for 5,000 pieces shipped. That 1.8 cents apiece delivered to your door.
 
I appreciate you spelling out all of that information and taking the time to do so, but How did the IMT cases "fail"?
I specifically said I've never had a case failure in loading well over 2000 rounds using this brass as I've mentioned, so I'm unsure your definition of "failure". If your saying this because of the velocities I posted bs velocities in a manual, how can you justly do so without knowing the specific chamber/firearm, OAL, barrel lengths etc.
If I take the same 124 FMJ atop the same 4.4gr charge of HP-38 but load one bullet at 1.110 and another at 1.150, there will be a difference in velocity. Not to mention firing those loads through different guns will create different pressures and velocities. Therefore I'm fairly confused how you can compare any of my loads to manual loads with regard to velocity.
On a side note, I just received an email back from Freedom Munitions regarding their brass and their response was and I quote " This internal rim is simply the result of how our cases are manufactured and does not change the powder holding capability or proper loading method. We reccomend using any of the current load data from a Speer or Lyman reloading manual."
Now I know you can't believe everything you read, but when asking a company specifically how to reload their brass, i would think it would be a great liability for them to respond to me in that way if it were not true. I find it hard to believe a major company would tell people to basically go out and hurt themselves by using standard load Data if it was not safe.
Lastly, the reason I use the IMT brass is because no one else really does. I'm not big on saving brass & chasing lost cases. My typical reload life for a given case is a few loads at most before it gets lost. For this reason I don't use Starline or other premium brass for my target pistol loads. I shoot a minimum of 200 sometimes upwards of 500 pistol rounds regularly ever single week, not counting my weekend trips when the rifles come out to play. I really don't have the time or energy to keep track of all that pistol brass, so half the time I just dump it in favor of new cases. Since no one at my local ranges reloads the IMT, it gets given to me, once fired, by the bucket load at no cost. As I've said previously I have not had a single issue thus far usin standard loads just as I would with any other case, so for me not to use this brass and go out of my way to sort through it is a solution to a problem that, atleast for me, does not even exist.
I also find it funny that although seemingly no one will reload this brass, thousands of people will shoot Freedom Munitions loading of the exact same type of case. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's also funny that the people making all the noise about how inherently bad/dangerous these cases are have never even shot or loaded the stuff, let alone done any real testing so it's a bunch of assumptions and things people "think" they know.
 
Freedom Munitions sells both "new" and "remanufactured" ammo. Question for those who actually use their remanufactured ammo: Do you find any IMT headstamps among their reloads?
 
If the IMT brass is made to SAAMI specs the interior size (volume) and the exterior dimensions have to be the same as other brass,(give or take the minutia)

If there is a ledge or shelf inside the case. it HAS to displace some of the volume (yes, no doubt it is a small amount) but it is there. You can not have more metal inside a volume and no us ups some of that volume. So regular powder charges are going to be a bit higher due to less volume,

Again there is so much name brand 9mm brass out there, I just do not get it? But if you are happy with it, go for it.

A long, long time ago my Wife had a Ford Pinto up in the snow belt.(the ones the exploded on impact) It was one of the few cars that would start when it was 20 degrees below zero!! It went on to survive two more sisters and I think it became a rusted Historical monument on the side of the road.:rofl:

I still would never recommend that car. as otherwise it was a piece of junk.

Perhaps you are a member for the Freedom Munitions brass credit program?;)
https://www.freedommunitions.com/brass-credit-program
 
Freedom Munitions sells both "new" and "remanufactured" ammo. Question for those who actually use their remanufactured ammo: Do you find any IMT headstamps among their reloads?
You don't even need to find IMT brass in their ammo. Freedom Munnitions' brass, headstamped "FM" also has the internal ledge
 
If the IMT brass is made to SAAMI specs the interior size (volume) and the exterior dimensions
I would have to check, but I don't think SAMMI cares a bit about inside dimensions and only gives outside measurements. It just needs to chamber in a SAMMI spec chamber where we have what are basically inside dimensions. Perhaps someone can tell us for sure.
 
You don't even need to find IMT brass in their ammo. Freedom Munnitions' brass, headstamped "FM" also has the internal ledge
Well, the thread topic is IMT brass, but thanks for the clarification. Let me rephrase my question to those who actually use Federal Munitions remanufactured ammo: Do you find any of the brass from the reman ammo to have IMT or FM headstamp and/or an internal step or ledge?
 
No such thing of course, if it fails consistently in any gun there is a problem. Just because one gun is stronger and didn't fail, yet, doesn't matter.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread because of factors I can't out care to verify but this caught my eye & wanted to mention some thoughts for you to consider. A AR pulling the rim back on a case that hasn't released its grip on the cylinder yet is going to be different then a case that is being pushed equally on all sides. Also I'm sure you've heard of Glocked brass where the feed ramp went well past the web of the case leaving it unsupported along with a few other manufacturers. I don't consider the same ammo safe in a unsupported chamber that i would still consider safe ammo in general. Also tighter then common chambers & barrels will have more pressure then common. While I've never seen a tight chamber push what I'd call a safe load to something that doesn't seem safe I can certainly tell it has showed signs of higher pressure in the case.

I would have to check, but I don't think SAMMI cares a bit about inside dimensions and only gives outside measurements. It just needs to chamber in a SAMMI spec chamber where we have what are basically inside dimensions. Perhaps someone can tell us for sure.
I don't read much on SAMMI specs but I believe your correct. It insures fit & pressure ratings is about it.

Just a little more info for everyone to consider. Speed & doesn't relate to pressure when there is other variables to consider. Less case volume can produce more pressure but produce less speed all at the same time. Less volume could also get a slower powder burning better & once the speed.

I'm another loader that enjoys working outside of common. I like subsonic & no recoil myself. I love faster powder in rifle. Tiny bullets in my 243 with a powder about the speed of Bluedot is my favorite. I also enjoy figuring out how to use powder that there is no data for. I used to be able to get powder for almost nothing by doing this however I think those days are gone.
 
Maybe not, cheap surplus could happen again.

I have worked outside the common, etc, but that's me and my risk. For the sake of rookie reloaders and readers of all kinds I error on the side of caution here every time. Too many people take reloading safety too casually. Just check out utube for some samples. :)
 
I would have to check, but I don't think SAMMI cares a bit about inside dimensions and only gives outside measurements. It just needs to chamber in a SAMMI spec chamber where we have what are basically inside dimensions. Perhaps someone can tell us for sure.

True, but if the outside dimensions are per "spec" then the inside volume would have to be pretty darn close allowing for (as I mentioned) the minutia of the wall thickness.

Anyway IMHO this is all a non issue with all the other brass available:scrutiny:

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/9mm Luger - 9mm Luger +P.pdf
 
but if the outside dimensions are per "spec" then the inside volume would have to be pretty darn close allowing for (as I mentioned) the minutia of the wall thickness.
True.

For the until now common 9MM brass, absolutely true, but this stuff is thicker. The stuff in the other thread was a great deal thicker. Not minutia or too small not to account for.
 
Definitely an issue with the stuff pictured here from the other thread.
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The brass in this thread? Not so much, but there is some difference and I would take it into account.
 
FWIW:
Saami only gives exterior dimensions and pressure specs. There's nothing on min/max interior dimensions, shelves, web thickness, cannelure placement/depth, etc.
The op is using the unsupported firearm's bbl trifecta. While Glocks have gotten a lot better with their usage of supported chambers. The sheild is the "NEW" bad boy on the block. There's this little known brass mfg called Starline. Starline makes and sells new brass for various pistols and revolvers, perhaps some of the reloads here have herd of them? Any here is what they have to say in the discription for their 9mm brass.
"9mm brass: also known as 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger and 9x19mm. This cartridge is now one of the most popular pistol cartridges in the world. **NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN S&W SHIELD PISTOLS WITH NEAR-MAX OR +P LOADS, DUE TO POORLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER CONDITION**"

Some hot loads fired from a shield 9mm, top shows the round fp strike (glocks are flat). The 2 top cases laying down clearly show signs of being bulged from the hot loads fired in the shield. The bottom 2 pieces of brass that are laying down are bulged cases from the shield that took a couple of trips/try's in the sizing die to get the bulge out. Note the heavy wear/stretch ring in the web area of the brass were the bulge's were removed "not good".


Why do I think 2 of the op's test loads failed???
There is a phenomena that happens in reloading when certain bullet/powder/calibers are used. It called diminished return. Diminished return is when you get near a max load and the reload doesn't gain any velocity or smaller than normal gains in velocity for that load. I've seen power pistol have diminished return in calibers like the 357 with fullhouse loads.But I've never saw a loss in velocity in any of the 6 calibers & 50+ bullets I've tested over the years. I've also loaded/ran hot loads of ww321 & hp-38 in the 9mm's, max standard loads and p+ loads. The ww231 & hp-38 always showed sizable gains in velocity when going from a max load to a p+ load.

The OP had no gain with 1 load and actually lost a bunch of velocity with another load. At the end of the day it comes down to extremely high pressure and nothing to show for it/no velocity gain. There's all sorts of ways to loose velocity in semi-auto's. Take the op's glock vs shield, both have 4" bbl's but yet there's huge differences in the same loads. If I was a gambling man I'd have to say the shield has a loose chamber that is unsupported and a .358" bore. The shield absorbed some of the pressure of the load by having the case expand to seal the chamber and the bullet's base having to expand to seal the bore.
The same thing happens when a case fails. Pressure is absorbed in other areas of the case itself creating either no gain in velocity or loss of velocity for the extra pressure of the extremely hot loads.
The Op stated that these IMT cases have a 5% less case capacity. I have not done any testing but if I did it would have to be with a bullet to bullet variation due to different bullets having different seating depths. But again, if I was a gambling man a pretty safe bet would be a blanket statement that the usable space left in the case for powder after the bullet is seated compared to a traditional case is a loss of 10% of the volume.
10% vs 5% is a lot!!
But then again 1 only measured 10 to 15 different IMT cases comparing them to several brands of standard cases and found that not only did the step in the case take up volume. The thicker web/base of the IMT cases and 6% to 8% less cavity depth than standard cases. All's one has to do is measure the normal case that was cut in the picture below and measure the IMT case also. Measure from the top/lip of the cases to the start of the flash hole. Or from the base of the case to he top of the flash hole. Doesn't matter either way will clearly show the IMT cases have the shorter cavity in the case.


Anyway, not trying to pick on anyone, single anyone out. Just pointing out these IMT cases aren't worth it. Small window to reload in and will not show signs of over pressure. They will just simply fail.
 
Definitely an issue with the stuff pictured here from the other thread.
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The brass in this thread? Not so much, but there is some difference and I would take it into account.
Had not seen this other thread on the IMT/Freedom brass but I will certainly check it out now. That is ALOT thicker than the cases I have used though, as I've never dealt with cases quite like that at all. In the end though I really appreciate everyone's input/comments and am glad this ended up being such a discussion. Atleast everyone here is being logical and smart about things. I can accept that a whole lot more than people local to me who as I said simply say "they're terrible and dangerous" with no explanation whatsoever. I have just as much Federal/Winchester/UMC brass as I do the IMT stuff on hand, but for my basic target loads after lots of testing and use the cases are interchangeable FOR ME, so I use them. I don't chase my brass hard at all, so I lose much of it after only a couple loads so for me in 9mm I take all Brass that I know works for me and load it. It's just easier than seperating or doing a brass exchange etc with the volume I shoot. Other people may not feel the same and that is totally fine too. I really would prefer people to ignore this brass if it indeed makes them feel unsafe about loading it because it's just not worth it if your getting that feeling.
On a side note, my new Berger 300gr load in .338 Lap Mag proved very successful today; I am now proud to say I put up a sub 6" group at 1000"! (10 shot)
Previous best with 285 ELDs were well over 6" and this Berger load was almost a solid 5.5" so I'm psyched for this new load.
 
Can we get a link to the other thread?

I'd like to play with some of this brass myself. It looks turned instead of drawn. I'd think it'd be better in unsupported chambers but not so good in large bore chambers. It also looks great for those that like glue stick rounds.

I can really see ARs ripping them into but oversized bores is probably the hardest on them.
 
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