Inconsistent Shoulder Bump-Redding 30-06 FL sized cases

[Alex G]

Hello all,
First of all, thanks so much to everyone on here for being an awesome community of reloaders. It’s been like having a reloading club next door but from all over the world!

Now on to my issue-
I recently purchased a Redding 2-die set for 30-06 to replace the Lee set I’ve been using for years. Most of my other dies are Redding’s, so I figured why not. I use their Big Boss 2 press and have been very impressed with its quality of machining, tolerances, and performance. That being said, I’m having issues with the sizing die not bumping the shoulder back consistently. Fired brass coming out of my rifle measures 2.0480” from base to shoulder datum line, using the Hornady .375 bushing in their comparator. My goal is to bump the shoulder back 2.5 thousandths, for a new base to shoulder datum measurement of 2.0455”.

I set the die to size to 2.0455” as desired, ensured it was locked down properly, and proceeded to lube the rest of my cases with imperial sizing die wax on the outside, and imperial dry lube on the inside of the necks. Now for the weird part, while probably 75% of the cases were sized within a thousandths of the 2.0455” desired, the other 25% varied by as much as 4 thousandths too short, to 3 thousandths longer than when fire formed! I repeated the test ensuring same headstamp brass from the same lot, with the same results. For curiosity’s sake I reinstalled my Lee FL sizer and once set up it was sizing within a thousandths every time, with no inconsistencies. I know the Redding does not use a vent hole as the Lee does, but could this really be making that much of an issue?
Neither the Lee sizer or Redding sizer are set up to cam-over, as I don’t have thick enough shellholders (Redding’s competition set) to allow me to do that while maintaining shoulder bump.
I also tried the test with the expander ball and decapping pin removed, again with the same results.



Any help would be appreciated. Thank you all!

 

[edwardware]

. . . I set the die to size to 2.0455” as desired. . .

No, you didn't.

First, unless you're in a metrology lab with a good micrometer, drop the ten-thousandths; they're silly and they are fooling you about measurement repeatability. If you're using a caliper, thousandths is just possible with good technique.

Second, you aren't (always) bumping the shoulder. You can tell because it isn't moving back in every case.

Third, unless you've just annealed, you're going to see variation in spring-back (sized shoulder position) of the brass of at least a few thou. That's normal.

Accept the variation, and lower the sizing die until the variation is all (or almost all) at or below target. Then go shoot.

ETA: That springback, and the variation thereof, applies to the case formed in the chamber too, so don't be too quick to set a hard target for shoulder position until you've reached slightly stiff chambering of unsized cases (bolt gun only, semis need a different approach).

 

[Dale Alan]

I would try this again when you have shellholders you can cam over with .

 

[JFrank]

I would try this again when you have shellholders you can cam over with .

Definitely an option

 

[lordpaxman]

I don’t have an explanation as to why, but if the only difference in your process was the Lee vs Redding FL die, then that’s the answer.
Is it possible something on the Redding die wasn’t locked down as tightly as you thought? How did you set it up initially?
I would size a case with the Lee and make sure it was what you’d want and then use that to set up or check in the Redding. It could be you have a bad Redding die but that’s not too likely. Good luck.

 

[Walkalong]

I generally get a .001 difference in shoulder position on sized cases even when they are the same lot, fired the same number of times, and annealed.

 

[JDinFbg]

For curiosity’s sake I reinstalled my Lee FL sizer and once set up it was sizing within a thousandths every time, with no inconsistencies.

I think there is your answer. Keep using your Lee dies. Use what works even if it's a different brand die. As edwardware noted in Post #2, as the brass work-hardens, it will become more 'springy' and will need to be annealed.

 

[Alex G]

Third, unless you've just annealed, you're going to see variation in spring-back (sized shoulder position) of the brass of at least a few thou. That's normal.

^Ah, I forgot to mention this, yes I anneal between every firing before sizing.

I would try this again when you have shellholders you can cam over with .

^Do you think this would make a significant difference?

Is it possible something on the Redding die wasn’t locked down as tightly as you thought? How did you set it up initially?

Initial setup was adjusting to where the shoulder bump was correct, and lightly tightening the lockring. Redding lockrings don’t truly “lock” until you back the die out of the press, so I did that, locked it down in the same position it was, and repeated until every time I would take the die out and thread it back in, the shoulder bump would be correct. It took 4-5 adjustments to get it perfect, but we got it there.

 

[txtaxman]

.....while probably 75% of the cases were sized within a thousandths of the 2.0455” desired, the other 25% varied by as much as 4 thousandths too short, to 3 thousandths longer than when fire formed!
I repeated the test ensuring same headstamp brass from the same lot, with the same results. For curiosity’s sake I reinstalled my Lee FL sizer and once set up it was sizing within a thousandths every time, with no inconsistencies.
Neither the Lee sizer or Redding sizer are set up to cam-over, as I don’t have thick enough shellholders (Redding’s competition set) to allow me to do that while maintaining shoulder bump.

I suggest that you try a test:

First, use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the Lee die at the top of the stroke when sizing a case.

Then, measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the Redding die at the top of the stroke when sizing a case.

Repeat the test as desired. I suspect that the Redding's gap will, on average, be much more than the Lee's gap.

As you have shown, some cases resist sizing more than others, even from the same lot.

Keep using the Lee dies or buy the Redding Competition Shellholder set, so you can cam over, your choice.

 

[JFrank]

^Ah, I forgot to mention this, yes I anneal between every firing before sizing.

^Do you think this would make a significant difference?

Initial setup was adjusting to where the shoulder bump was correct, and lightly tightening the lockring. Redding lockrings don’t truly “lock” until you back the die out of the press, so I did that, locked it down in the same position it was, and repeated until every time I would take the die out and thread it back in, the shoulder bump would be correct. It took 4-5 adjustments to get it perfect, but we got it there.

Do you check every single case when sizing ?
Why do you anneal after every firing ?
What is your process for annealing?

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Why so fussy on the shoulder? I do focus on trim length.

 

[JDinFbg]

Why so fussy on the shoulder? I do focus on trim length.

Rimless cases headspace on the shoulder not the end of the neck. If cases are 'over-sized' (meaning, sized more than necessary to get easy, consistent bolt closing) for the particular rifle chamber they are being fired in, the cases are forced to expand more than necessary when fired. Over multiple firings this will cause the case body to stretch and one will start to see the tell-tale signs of head separation. I have measured the chamber lengths in all my rifles, and I do not have a one where the chamber will not accommodate a cartridge that is longer than the SAAMI maximum case length specification. My 1917 Enfield will accommodate a case 0.017" longer than SAAMI maximum. My 30 W.C.F. Model 94 Winchester has a chamber that is 0.054" longer than the SAAMI maximum cartridge length. Thus, I only trim cases as necessary to square-up the end of the case mouth.

 

[JFrank]

Why so fussy on the shoulder? I do focus on trim length.

Case head separation can result from excessive Headspace.

 

[Blue68f100]

Are you full stroking the ram every time? Then pause at the top before going back down? You do not need to bump the shell holder to cam over.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Thanks for answering learned something new today.

 

[Alex G]

First, use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the Lee die at the top of the stroke when sizing a case.

I actually did that with the Redding but not the Lee, yet. Took somewhere around 14 thousandths to get contact.

Do you check every single case when sizing ?
Why do you anneal after every firing ?
What is your process for annealing?

Yes I inspect every case, when sizing my Nosler competition brass I measure the first 10 and every fifth to ensure consistent shoulder bump. Annealing after every firing to remove any work hardening inconsistencies in the brass. The most work hardening happens between being freshly annealed and the first firing thereafter.

Why so fussy on the shoulder? I do focus on trim length.

Headspace for one, but I also use a WFT to trim, which sets the trim length based on shoulder location. Therefore my trim location precision is directly related to the precision of my shoulder bump.

 

[Alex G]

Are you full stroking the ram every time? Then pause at the top before going back down? You do not need to bump the shell holder to cam over.

Full stroking the ram to the point it comes to a hard stop against the mechanical stop pins on the press itself.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I load my 30.06 on my Lyman brass smith turret press. I use Lee dies for it. I have an old set of bear dies i used to use. But ruined the sizing die pin. Because of a stuck case. I have since bought a stuck case removal kit.

 

[JDinFbg]

In Post #12 I stated "rimless cases headspace on the shoulder". This response was in the context of the OP asking about the 30-06. To be completely accurate, I should have said "bottle-neck, rimless cases headspace on the shoulder". There are straight-wall, rimless cases that headspace on the end of the neck (e.g., 45 ACP), and in these cases cartridge length becomes more important.

 

[JDinFbg]

Case head separation can result from excessive Headspace.

Yes, and this process is accelerated by not optimally sizing your brass to fit your particular rifle chamber. Even if you have a chamber that is over SAAMI maximum specs (within reason), your brass will stretch on the first firing, but as long as you leave your brass 'long' thereafter to fit the chamber and don't try to size it back to SAAMI minimum, you should be good to go and the brass should last for many firings.

 

[Alex G]

Pleasant update! Tried several different methods to shoulder bump consistently:

1. Removed the expanding button from inside the sizing die
2. Annealed before sizing (technically I did this before too, but just wanted to include that it was done for consistency)
3. Purchased Redding Competition Shellholders.

Sizing die has been setup for light cam over, and using the +.010 shellholder gives the perfect amount of desired shoulder bump. Cases are lubed with Imperial Sizing Die Wax, and out of 15 tested including mixed headstamp brass, all sized within +-.0005, or all sizings falling within .001 from min to max. Honestly my calipers aren’t even accurate to .0005, so I’m pretty sure it’s now dead-on accurate. Cases were dropped into a 30-06 case gauge, all with consistent results! Very happy with the consistency.


Side note-somehow my Redding Competition shellholder set came with (2) +.004 shellholders, instead of a +.002 and a .004. I emailed Redding, and within a few hours I had an email back from one of their customer support guys apologizing for the mix up, and letting me know that a replacement for the missing one was in the mail and on the way to me the same day! Have nothing but good things to say about Redding customer service, they’re top-notch!

 

[JDinFbg]

Alex G., glad to hear you found a solution.

 

[Alex G]

Thanks!

 

[Walkalong]

Great, bet it was the expander, and havig a hard stop using the Competition Shell Holder helps.

 

[film495]

It was the shell holder?