Innocent question re Half-cock position on wheelguns

[Mr. Magnum]

what is the real usage of the half-cock position on the hammer of our smithies? does other brand of revolver have this feature? I have seen half-cock position on other pistols but they have safety levers but wheelguns do not have these..

any insights would be great. thanks!

 

[RON in PA]

Since when do double action revolvers have a half-cock position?

 

[dogngun]

There is no advantage because there is no half cock position on a S&W revolver. I don't know what you have been shooting, but you should take a close look at it.
The "safety" factor of a DA revolver is the long DA trigger pull and the supposed brain power of the user.

Mark

 

[huntershooter]

The old Colt "P" model half cock was the reload position for hammer. At half cock the cylinder would rotate freely. Never seen a "half cock" on a S&W double action.

 

[Father Knows Best]

What huntershooter said. On a Colt Model P (Single Action Army), when the hammer is either down or fully cocked, the "bolt" protrudes from the frame below the cylinder and nests in a cutout in the cylinder. This locks the cylinder in place so it cannot rotate. When you draw the hammer back to cock the gun, the bolt retracts to allow the cylinder to rotate, and the "hand" pushes the star on the back of the cylinder to turn it. As the hammer continues rearward, the bolt re-emerges and engages the next cylinder notch, locking it in place ready for the next firing.

The half cock notch arrests this process halfway -- after the bolt withdraws but before the hand starts to rotate the cylinder. Thus, half cock is the only position where the cylinder can rotate freely. As mentioned above, that is needed so you can load and unload it.

 

[Old Fuff]

The trouble with you guys is that your aren't really, really old enough...

Back in my day, during the 19th century, Smith & Wesson tip-up barrel models and some top-break's did have what some might call a half-cock notch, although it really wasn't that. It was a safety notch, intended to lift the firing pin off of the chambered round's primer. Like the quarter-cock (safety) notch on Colt Single Actions it didn't work very well, and eventually S&W went to a rebounding hammer system.

Modern S&W revovers do have a safety - in fact most models have two. While the hammer is rebounded backwards and blocked by one safety, a second one places a block between the hammer and frame, just under the firing pin.

So know you know....

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Rebound on a double action does act like half-cock on a single action
even though it is technically not the same, it does the same job: keeps
the hammer off the firing pin.

 

[kb2iaw]

Well let me just say...that when you read these posts a person sure can learn something every day ...thanks to you guys .

 

[Mr. Magnum]

Old Fuff / Carl N. Brown, thanks for the posts. appreciate it. I have posted the same topic on other threads and i was suprised that almost everyone never knew and/or no-one was able to give me a definite answer. i was even told to take it to a gunsmith.

I have three wheelguns. two from the 1970's and one i had just bought last year. all are s&w. all have half-cocks (or a rebounding hammer system).

If my current one is the only wheelgun that has it, or my old ones, then i would have gone worried.

thanks again. Happy and safe shooting to all!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The old Colt "P" model half cock was the reload position for hammer. At half cock the cylinder would rotate freely.

The Colt SAA has three notches -- "safety," "loading" and "full cock." The safety notch (which is not safe!!) is usually called the "half cock" notch. That terminology goes back to flintlocks, where an undercut notch was used as the safety and was called the "half cock."

 

[ArmedBear]

I thought a SAA's "safety" position is called "quarter cock".

Half-cock is the "loading" position on the black powder revolvers that preceded them, and also for flint and percussion muzzleloaders. It's a deeper notch that won't allow the trigger to be pulled, on all these types, just like on a SAA.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Half-cock is the "loading" position on the black powder revolvers that preceded them, and also for flint and percussion muzzleloaders

.

Half cock is the safety position for flint and percussion muzzle loaders. Such guns have only two notches in the tumbler -- half cock and full cock. There was no separate notch for loading alone.

The Colt revolver added a third notch, between the two, for loading. In the old days, most people called that the "loading notch" and reserved the older terminology for the other two notches.

 

[Old Fuff]

Mr. Magnum:

Not to worry...

The last Smith & Wesson revolver that used a half-cock (safety only, not for loading) notch was a top-break that was discontinued in 1915.

All of the S&W hand-ejector revolvers, where the cylinder swings out to the left, had rebounding hammers, and those made during and after 1945 had an additional independent hammer block. None of them, to this day, ever had any kind of safety or half-cock notch on the hammer face.

Do understand that a half-cock notch on the hammer, and a rebounding hammer safety are not the same thing. With a rebounding system the hammer fall all of the way down so that the firing pin can hit a primer, but then retracts or moves a short distance backwards so that the firing pin can withdraw back into the breechface and not touch any cartridge. A half-cock system requires that the user pulls the hammer backwards far enough so the trigger can drop into the notch. A rebounding hammer requires nothing be done on the part of the user because the revolver's lockwork itself does everything.

 

[ArmedBear]

Half cock is the safety position for flint and percussion muzzle loaders. Such guns have only two notches in the tumbler -- half cock and full cock. There was no separate notch for loading alone.

True, there's no separate notch. It is, however, the notch I use for loading/priming. I just leave leave the gun on half-cock until I'm ready to cock the gun.

Anyway, every reference I can dig up calls the notch just off the primer in a SAA the "quarter cock" and the loading notch halfway up the hammer's travel the "half cock". Is that historically inaccurate?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I have always heard the safety referred to as the "half cock." And functionally, it is the half cock.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Anyway, every reference I can dig up calls the notch just off the primer in a SAA the "quarter cock" and the loading notch halfway up the hammer's travel the "half cock". Is that historically inaccurate?

That's the terminology I use, though I often refer to the first notch as the "safety notch" and not "quarter cock." My understanding is that it was never intended as a "safe" position for the hammer. Rather, the first notch is there to catch the hammer if your thumb slips off it while drawing it back. Otherwise, you might have an ND if there was a live cartridge under the hammer when you went to draw it back. The safety (or quarter cock) notch is not very strong, though, and a sharp rap on the hammer while in that position can and will shear the notch, allowing the hammer to fall. That's why you never load more than "5 beans in the wheel" in those old single actions -- so the hammer can be down on an empty chamber.

 

[Mr. Magnum]

[Otherwise, you might have an ND ]
by the way what is an ND?

[if there was a live cartridge under the hammer when you went to draw it back. The safety (or quarter cock) notch is not very strong, though, and a sharp rap on the hammer while in that position can and will shear the notch, allowing the hammer to fall. ]

FKB, I believe i have heard this one also before when I started in the shooting sport. Thanks for the info!

Tsk Tsk Tsk... do you know what this means??

This means that thru all my (5) years of loving these wheelguns of mine and being a pro-revolver just ain't enough... for me it isnt.

I now feel like a driver that doesnt know how to mechanic a car.

Thanks again for all your posts. Il try to get a copy of how a revolver works (of different brands)... and I'll try to save this thread for my data and review.

i guess my cravings for learning just doesnt have a dead end.

 

[YosemiteSam357]

ND == "Negligent Discharge": Bullet exiting the barrel at speed when you did not plan for the event.

i guess my cravings for learning just doesnt have a dead end.

And that's a good thing. You'll never stop learning with this hobby. There are so many facets of it they're unknowable by one person.

Good luck,

-- Sam

 

[Newkid]

Good day to you all. My experience shows that you can half cock the k-frame M-19. Unload revolver first before trying this. Hold and pull hammer about half way back. Pull trigger back until you feel hammer click in and let loose. Hammer will stay in a half cocked positon.

 

[Kaylee]

Newkid -

I'm going from memory here, but it sounds like you're getting the "sear part" of the trigger stuck between the single action notch and the "flapper thing" (yeah, that's a technical term ) on the Smith hammer.

Honestly, it's not something I'd make a habit of, as you're forcing the gun to do something it's not designed to do. I don't *think* it'd just give way from that position, and unless the trigger's pulled it should stop a discharge - but you are putting pressure on the trigger in a way it's not designed to support, and may see accelerated parts wear there - possibly mucking up your trigger pull, tying up the gun, or (worse case) making it unsafe for single action firing.

-K

 

[Old Fuff]

Newkid:

You have a lot to learn...

There are no notches on a modern Smith & Wesson's hammer face, but there is a little lever called the "sear." The purpose of the sear is to allow the trigger to rotate the hammer backwards during the double-action mode. All you are doing is jamming the action by allowing the nose of the trigger to become jammed against the sear. This is not a safety in any way or form.

Hopefully no one will follow your example.

 

[Newkid]

Thanks for the input old Fuff, I agree that it is not safe, however I think the question was why it would go into a half cock position in the first place. I beleive the gentleman that asked the question was trying to find out if it was available in all S&W. I was only giving an example of what can happen with the 19-5. Which could be what the poster was asking about. Thanks for the input though because it isn't a safe position for the trigger. Oh, I have also talked about my K-frame being a jeweled trigger and how I would not advise any new shooter doing this to their weapon. Beleive me I have and used alot of hand guns and rifles in the past, including military service and feel that I know what the front of a barrel looks like or what the inside of an m-16, m-14 , .45 acp, .32 acp, .22 ruger, as well as the 19-5 looks like on the inside and how to fix many minor problems. Just take a look at the post in this section and maybe you will see why I answered the genlemans question the way I did. It is just an example of what can be done, not something that is justified for safety. I have had this K-frame 19-5 for at least 15 years and have enjoyed it alot. Sad to say that I keep the weapon in a holster at all times because it has no true type safety. It is a Bianche type belt holster with trigger strap. That is the only way I will carry this weapon around with me, with the trigger strap in place at all times.

 

[Old Fuff]

New Kid:

Sad to say that I keep the weapon in a holster at all times because it has no true type safety. It is a Bianche type belt holster with trigger strap. That is the only way I will carry this weapon around with me, with the trigger strap in place at all times.

The problem here (and it happens frequently) is that you don't think your revolver has a safety because you can't see it, or work a button or lever with your thumb. These would be examples of a manual safety. Your S&W has mechanical ones, that work themselves.

Your Smith & Wesson not only has one safety, it has two, and both positively block the hammer so the firing pin can't hit a primer unless the trigger is pulled (or cocked) all of the way back and held there while the hammer falls. Even better, you don't have to do a thing because both of these safeties are operated by the revolver's lockwork itself.

1. When you pull the trigger, either in the single-action or double-action mode, the hammer falls all of the way down, and the firing pin hits the primer. But as you let the trigger move forward (and go all of the way) the hammer retracts a short distance back into the frame, and the firing pin followes it back into the breechface. At this point the firing pin cannot touch a cartridge, and the hammer is blocked at the bottom by the rebound slide and it cannot move.

2. But after 1945 Smith & Wesson decided that wasn't good enough. So they added a second, independent hammer bock that inserts itself between the frame and hammer, just under the firing pin. If you cock the hammer and look you'll notice a notch in the hammer face just under the firing pin. It's there as part of this second safety. Again, you don't have too do anything because the lockwork automatically engages and disengages this safety for you.

So right now, as your model 19 rests in a holster (not a good idea, under some circumstances it can cause the gun to rust and ruin the blue), the hammer is retracted back into the frame, and so is the firing pin. And the hammer is blocked so that it can't move forward in two different places. You can't get much safer then that - except possibly by resting the hammer on an empty chamber. But so far as post-World War Two Smith & Wesson revolvers such as your model 19, this isn't necessary.

Now aren't you glad you visit The High Road?

 

[Newkid]

Now aren't you glad you visit The High Road?

Thank You Old Fuff. My concern has been and probably always will be that if I were to catch the hammer with my clothing, because of the cut surface on the hammer, it is very likely that this hammer will fall and take with it a round. In single action movement this paticular weapon has somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 ounces to pull the trigger and it only takes one time for the hammer to get stuck in my clothing and my not realizing and put my finger near the trigger enough for this to go off. Even though I have been trained never to put my finger on the trigger unless I mean to fire down range, it is possible that while struggling to get the hammer loose from my clothing I might grab the trigger. I appreciate your kindness in describing the safety and Yes it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. But with this trigger the way it is you may understand my reluctance. Better safe then dead. Even though I cannot work because of this right foot problem I still enjoy what life I have left. This trigger is a joy to work with especially with .357 ammo in it. Hardly any work at all. Sometimes after firing alot of rounds, I don't feel the pull, it is so light. It just takes a light and I mean light touch and it will fire a round. And no that is not safe but it is a nice ammenity for aiming because I don't pull the weapon away from the target.

 

[Old Fuff]

Oh boy....

I presume that you don't cock the pistol until the muzzle is pointed down range and you are ready to pull the trigger and shoot. Unless the trigger is held all of the way back while the hammer is falling it won't fire.

Even in the highly unlikely event that you either store the revolver with the hammer cocked, or holster it with the hammer cocked, it still won't go off.

Should you snag the hammer in your clothing (or whatever) it won't fire unless the trigger is all of the way back and held there.

The weight of the trigger pull doesn't in and of itself make any difference.