Interesting causative factor in gun massacres

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On the other hand, there are lots and lots of depressed people out there who aren't on Prozac. If you find that the percentage of people who commit these atrocities who are taking Prozac is much higher than the percentage of depressed people who are taking Prozac, then that is highly suggestive that Prozac is a causative factor.

I acknowledge that you then have to factor in things like, "Just how depressed are they," and "Are there different types of depression involved," etc., etc., etc. For example, the fact that they are on Prozac indicates that there is some kind of medical treatment going on. (Duh.) Does that include psychological counseling? Then perhaps it's the liberal "blame the system instead of taking responsibility for your own actions" shrinks that are the cause of the problem. And so on, ad nauseam.
 
Then perhaps it's the liberal "blame the system instead of taking responsibility for your own actions" shrinks that are the cause of the problem.
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I fear that, in the conservative/libertarian community, the tendency to blame liberals for every last thing that is wrong in American society has become a ridiculous cliche.
 
Joe, I apologize for not putting a "tongue-in-cheek" smilie after that, but THR doesn't have a "tongue-in-cheek" smilie! :uhoh:

That was intended as a "crazy, totally off-the-wall" suggestion of a different "cause" that results in Prozac being a correlated effect, rather than the cause.

That said, it could even be true. A bad shrink can really do a number on someone's head.
 
"ridiculous cliche"

And we all know that liberals are responsible for ridiculous cliches...

:p
 
I think the biggest single problem with drugs like ritalin (and, for that matter, adult antidepressants like Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) is the tendency to leave patients on them for years and years. I'm sure these things must have a cumulative effect on the body. Also, as very well pointed out earlier, they tend to be a "mask" concealing the real issues involved.

Let me use myself as an example. I went through a very bad patch a few years ago. A very dear friend died: I'd just started a new and very stressful job: I'd just moved into a new house: and my mother had begun to show signs of the dementia that's almost killed her by now. All these factors built up tremendous stress levels in me, and I was very depressed (in the sense of clinical depression). I went to my doctor, and he prescribed a couple of different antidepressants, before settling on a moderate daily dose of Zoloft.

He was quite prepared to go on prescribing these indefinitely, and even suggested to me that I shouldn't worry about stopping them. However, I knew the causes for my depression, and didn't want to make myself a chemically-dependent vegetable. It took me a year or so to get over the stresses and strains in my life, and then I stopped the Zoloft. He was rather concerned, but I felt great, and have never had any problems since then. I trusted my own judgement as to when I was ready to stop, and it worked for me. I'm glad I had these drugs available when I needed them, but there was no way I was going to allow them to rule my life.

I understand that there are folks with long-term chemical imbalances in the brain, who need these drugs virtually forever. However, I'm convinced that doctors do us a disservice by lumping everybody into that "long-term use" category, without trying to distinguish between those who need a temporary helping hand, and those with more serious long-term difficulties.
 
And Democrats cause cancer.
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No, just ulcers.

On a more serious note, it's been known for years that anti-depressants are not anywhere near 100% effective. I've been told that for any given group of people prescriped an anti-depressant that 1/3 will show signs of improvement, 1/3 will remain unchanged, and for 1/3 their condition will worsen. (This is, of course, a very simplified explanation, yet one that I think is still applicable.) In order to gauge this, a patient cannot be expected to just take the pills and get better. They must take an active role in their own mental health through serious self-examination and making adjustments in their life. For most people, this is best accomplished by talking with a therapist.
 
I work as an IT consultant to lawyers and legal offices exclusively.

One of our clients in Houston (who has been on several big news magazine shows) specializes in cases where people flip out and kill people.

They have boxes of cases that all go pretty much the same way:

Normal person by all accounts, begins taking an anti depressant.

A week or so later, they kill their whole family and them self.

Boxes of these cases....
 
I think the biggest single problem with drugs like ritalin (and, for that matter, adult antidepressants like Prozac, Zoloft, etc.) is the tendency to leave patients on them for years and years. I'm sure these things must have a cumulative effect on the body.

It's been pointed out in some articles that cocaine and SSRI's are fairly similar in what they do.

Cocaine is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor; it keeps your brain from re-absorbing dopamine, so the levels are higher. If taken in large doses or otherwise abused, eventually the brain lowers its dopamine production, until finally a cocaine addict "crashes;" their body produces zero dopamine. Too much dopamine causes schizophrenia, while too little causes Parkinson's.

Most antidepressants are serotonin reuptake inhibitors. In theory, serotonin production should not lower too much while on the drug, but abuse is possible; or someone's brain chemistry might be a bit different, so that it stops/slows serotonin production faster than most. A low serotonin level appears to cause depression, PMS, violence, impulsive behavior, and all those other things SSRI's are prescribed for, while excess serotonin has been observed in people with autism, mental retardation, psychosis, and Alzheimers.

So... it's possible some of these people were autistic or mildly psychotic, misdiagnosed as needing an SSRI, then given a drug that made their condition worse, and/or gave them a few new ones. Or, they might have abused the drug, giving themselves psychosis. It's also possible that their serotonin levels "crashed," because the dose was too high, their brain chemistry doesn't like drugs, or any other of a number of reasons, and they became violent, suicidal, impulsive, etc.

Myself, I was once misdiagnosed with "panic attacks" (actually a reactive airway disorder; all I needed was a freaking antihistamine) and prescribed SSRI's. One side effect I experienced was memory loss, and I'm fairly sure now that I might have accidentally taken a double dose a few times. Fortunately, all that happened to me aside from memory loss is I got extremely irritable and tired all the time, but if a relatively normal person experiences similar memory loss, I think it's quite possible they could have accidentally taken way more of the drug than they should have, and been temporarily psychotic.

It's something think about, anyway.
 
Most people are under the erroneous assumption that the anti depressant drugs actually cure depression by themselves. They don't. All they do is slowly correct the chemical imbalances in the brain. Unless an adjunct retraining is used along with the drug(s), such as Cognitive Therapy for Depression, the drugs are ineffective.
 
First, I didnt mean to imply that the ONLY causitive factor of suicide or massacres was SSRI's or that taking them always lead to such events. I have known several people who began taking prozac and were worse off for it and I have also observed that most of the bloody massacres in the past decade involved troubled people that started taking SSRIs and subsequently cracked, violently.

The only commonality between ritalin and prozac are that they are
-overperscribed to all people, especially children
-like alcohol and many other chemicals, they are used as an alternative to actually solving problems, and can thus produce a dependency of sorts as people continue to turn to them as an escape from reality

Ritalin is basically a methamphetimine analog, made slightly milder so that the effects are more controllable. Like speed, it tends to cause physical stimulation but also reduces mental capacity. This makes children better able to focus on extremely boring activities without getting restless. The main problem with ritalin (beyond the harm of trying cure the "disease" of hyperactivity in children) is that children often take steadily increasing doses of it into their college years, by which time they are completely dependent on it. Years of use have also helped them discover that it can be sold and used as a recreational drug- the children then graduate on to harder stuff. If you ever wanted a "gateway drug" ritalin is it.

I dont really understand it as well, but prozac seems to produce a mild euphoric state in the user and leads them to being very laid back about stuff they might normally get very upset over. People say they feel better on it, but thats the main effect of the drug- it makes you feel good about everything. That slight twisting of ones ability to divide reality into things that make you happy or sad might be enough. I could see how this might lead to someone losing their inhibitions towards murder or suicide if they were in the right state of mind.
 
You folks are onto something...

Depression leads to prozac treatment. Prozac can lead to dangerous psychosis. Dangerous psychosis plus depression leads to murder.

Maybe the problem isn't the drug? Maybe the problem is depression in the first place. Where does depression come from? Look around you. Work, school, financial problems, taxes, bullies, etc... All the things that you can't escape from, and you can't beat. Maybe it's time to start re-engineering our way of life with an emphasis on quality.
 
Drugs are a CORRELATE of crime, including mass shootings. CAUSATION is another matter entirely, and impossible to prove because of spurious variables.
 
beerslurpy said,
After doing a little digging, I found that Columbine, the Atlanta work shooting, Kip Kinkel, Jonesboro and Edinburo (sp?) school shootings were all performed by people under the influence of prozac or similar drugs at the time. Its amazing how everyone pounces on the gun angle of these killings without asking why they went crazy. I know if there was marijuana in their bloodstreams it would have been on the news for months.
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Contrary to the thread's title, just because there is a correlation does not mean there is causation. Sure, those events might have been performed by folks on various types of medication. That is a correlation. The events were also performed by folks using guns. That is a correlation. Another correlation is that all those folks were diagnosed with mental issues of various sorts. Most or all had social interaction problems, including being outcasts of the general kid populations - a correlation. So, did these kids commit these horrible acts because of some sort of predisposition associated with the mental issues? Due to drugs? Due to gun access? Or due to various known and unknown factors? Social outcasts?
 
Yes, I know that correlation doesnt equal causation, but correlation is often enough to establish that a company was negligent in selling the drug, especially if it was aware of that correlation. Take vioxx for example. Correlation is the first step in establishing causation.

My personal bet is that there is causation because Ive known people who took prozac and I did encounter the suicide aspect of the drug (unsuccessful). Non-suicidal people become suicidal after taking prozac. Non-psychotic people begin murdering people after taking prozac. Not all of them, but certainly more than I am historically aware of before prozac use became widespread. I doubt the psychoactive effect is as strong as say PCP, but I still think it bears investigation.
 
Finding a root "cause" of school shootings is going to be next to impossible. Human behavior is one of the hardest things in the world to study in the first place. And school shootings are so rare that data is hard to come by at best. You can find any number of things in common with all of these kids and that doesnt get you anywhere.

Yes, they were all on Prozac. They also all had guns, dressed in dark clothing, had questionable parenting, were mentally disturbed and God knows what else. They also seemed to be socially outcast from their peers and may have been victims of bullying. The fact is that millions of kids fit the exact same profile and DON'T commit any violent acts. To say that any one factor causes such behavior is a mistake.

Trying to blame outside factors and causes for a person's actions is just a means of alleviating that person's responsibility for those actions. To say that Prozac caused Columbine isnt any different from saying that guns caused it. I happen to know EXACTLY what caused Columbine; Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. It really is as simple as that. Two kids killed a lot of other kids, and then themselves, it happens. It is probably preventable but, I suspect, only through parenting.
 
YOU GUYS ARE ALL WAY OFF BASE!

The bottom line is this is actually pretty simple. If you are bi-polar (manic depressive) and you take Prozac or similar, it acts as a disinhibitor (sic).

So while you were nuts before, your paranoia, fear or whatever, prevented you from carrying things out, you go on prozac and you no longer are inhibited and commit suicide, go on a shooting rampage etc.

It is really easy to confuse OCD or depression with manic depression, so some people who should really NOT be on prozac end up getting prescribed prozac.

The newer stuff is not quite as bad in this regard (ie you give a bi-polar person zoloft or lexapro(sic?) they probably won't kill themselves) but it is a major issue.

Lots of truly depressed people have benefited from anti-depressants, but like everything else with a profit motive they have been overprescibed and this is what happens.

BTW all those "normal" people in those cases I am willing to bet were bi-polar. They go to the shrink when they are non-manic and depressed, get prozac, and go nuts. Whether they would have been better left alone or on lithium is a whole other issue.
 
its part of the reason why insurance is so high for doctors.its part of the problem,there is no miracle pill that works perfectly in every single case yet its still being done that way.hopefully,someone will wake up and smell the smoke and stop dumping unknowns on people as a miracle cure.
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The problem is that it's impossible to test every drug in every conceivable situation before approving it; if we did, almost no drugs would be approved.

My 5-year-old son pretty much requires Propulsid (cisapride) in order to survive, due to severe gastroparesis. On Propulsid, his gastric emptying is NORMAL. Propulsid is a miracle drug for him.

For an elderly man who has QT prolongation from a previous heart attack, Propulsid can be dangerous because it can prolong the QT interval, increasing the man's risk of ventricular fibrillation.

Should Propulsid be yanked from the market because it can harm person #2 if negligently prescribed to him? Ralph Nader says yes (and his group got Propulsid yanked, BTW). I say ABSOLUTELY NOT.
 
"it's been known for years that anti-depressants are not anywhere near 100% effective."

NO drug is 100% effective for all people at all times.

I'm highly allergic to aspirin and penicillin, so those drugs aren't effective for me.

My wife is highly resistant to narcotic pain killers, which made life very unpleasant for her when she had knee surgery some years ago.

People, even members of the same family, can have tremendously different responses to medications.

It's also somewhat wrong to say lump ALL anti-depressants into the same category.

There are a number of different classes, which have very different operational mechanisms.

An entire class of drugs may fail to help an individual, or one drug may have no effect while another drug in the same family may prove to be very effective.

Anti-depressants are no different than any other drug.
 
To hear some (including more and more lawyers who are salivating at the thought of becoming very rich suing drug companies for trying to save lives), we should simply return to a time when NO drugs of any kind were available.
 
Eli Lilly's stock price dropped on the news that ...

The stock went down 1.3%. One-point-three. That's a nothing movement in price, just normal market ripples. There's no way to assign a cause to a drop that small, unless you're a reporter with a point to make.

There was no mention of Columbine in the article. Does Prozac cause mass-murder? Sounds like we need a government study on it. I have some friends who take prozac. I think it just causes people to be liberal Democrats.

JPL suggested going back to when there were no drugs. Nope, there were always drugs. Maybe we could go back to a time when there were no lawyers. Or back to a time when there were no penitentiaries (insert smilie that means "just kidding ... sorta")

Regards.
 
Finding a root "cause" of school shootings is going to be next to impossible.
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This is absolutely true, but it won't stop people from trying. Anti-gunners will (and did) use it to try and force retrictive legislation. Anti-video games people will use it to restrict the sale of certain types of games to children. People that don't like psychotropic medication will point to these incidents and try to get these drugs off the market. Mass tort lawyers will be looking to make big bucks.

I agree that some children are medicated when they probably shouldn't, but I don't see an easy solution.
 
waffles

Yes, I know that correlation doesnt equal causation, but correlation is often enough to establish that a company was negligent in selling the drug, especially if it was aware of that correlation. Take vioxx for example. Correlation is the first step in establishing causation.
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Hey, I wasn't the one who titled the thread about an "interesting causative factor" and then described the drugs.

While you may think that correlation is the first step in establishing causation, there are many correlations in the cases and all could be said to be the first step in establishing causation...to different causes.

You may be right that there is a causation here, but NOT because of some correlation. To be valid, you are going to have to rule out all of the other correlations as well or justify the correlations' presence.

As near as I can tell, pretty much all the people in your sample were already screwed up before they ever went on drugs, some in some very antisocial manners. I think you will also find the correlation that all or most also abused other mind altering substances ranging from legal to illegal drugs and alcohol. So there are definitely other drugs in the mix beyond the prescriptions.
 
The problem is that it's impossible to test every drug in every conceivable situation before approving it; if we did, almost no drugs would be approved.
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Im glad the meds are working for your son.

my aunt was prescribed a new drug and 3 days later,went into a coma and we had to decide to let her go.sometime later,it was found that it caused problems in people that had astma.I can go on...I was taking celebrex for my back problems until it started giving me chest pains,I stopped and the back pain has returned but at least Im not having chest pains..guess where that one has gone- "T" for trash!I dont want to be the next test patient for ANY new drug.

It is probably preventable but, I suspect, only through parenting.
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I agree 100% c_yeager.This is why some folks might behave differently than say one whom is allowed access to the "fruits" and given zero parental supervision 24/7 as a child.theres no coping skills and everything becomes learned behavior...having a chemical imbalance in the brain for these folks certainly didnt help the situation much neither.

I was bullied by upperclassmen when I was in school but I was raised by methods thought unheard of this day and age.I swear my history teacher carried that paddle hidden somewhere under his suit coat cause he produced it in a flash and dealt it equally quick,he was the wyatt erp of paddles..no criminals came out of my family cause of it.

the answer isnt just prescribing pills and hoping for the best.
 
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