Interesting causative factor in gun massacres

[Roc_Kor]

Antideppressants...
Violent Video games...
Antisocial...
Bullying...
Subpar parenting...
Suicide...
GUNS...!

STOP TALKING ABOUT ME BEHIND MY BACK!

No, seriously... you people could actually be talking about me. I also think that Prozac is prescribed too much for too many people too often. I'm on Zoloft and Welbutrin. I play violent video games (which don't affect me or how 'violent' I am). I am antisocial (as in I avoid people, not that I fight or anything) and get picked on and called a fag like 3 times each class. (no, I'm not gay... that's just the insult these days). My parents used to yell at me when I was younger. My father was the scariest, and they used the belt often (it's not an abuse thing, it's a Mexican thing). And I have two guns, an AK-47 and an SKS. I got them both while I was depressed and taking meds and everything.

I tell you, it's hard. Even with medication. It can fix things like the saratonin, but not the other things. It could cause more of an 'imbalance'. I don't know if the medication works or not, but I'm alive right now, and why question a 'good' thing? Having people laughing at you and say, "Yeah, what are you gonna do? I'm not afraid of your little AK." Of course, that kind of crap makes you pissed and is really temptation.

High School is so hard these days. We need to do something about the moral system in this damn world. Honestly, it's sort of feels 'good' (for lack of a better word) imagining their frightened, regretful faces beg for mercy as I shove lead into their friends' skulls as I progress my way towards them. But, alas... whenever I'm with my guns all I want to do is hug em.

Parents who lost children to Columbine shouldn't spend their time whining about their loss or blaming guns. Their brats probably helped spark the damn thing.

 

[cracked butt]

Has anyone considered that these kids might have been perfectly normal kids with a little too much piss and vinegar in them so their nonexistant parents put them on psychoactive drugs to calm them down and make them manageable?

If I were a school kid these days, I certainly would have been put on ritalin. In my day, the hyper kid was called the class clown- it was always boys who were hyperactive- its part of their nature.

 

[DMF]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Please do not interrupt irrational rants, especially when directed at the drug companies run by the Satan worshipping greed freaks, with logic and rational discussion. Very poor form to interrupt the torch carrying mob that way.

NOTE: (because some folks are too thick headed to understand all or part of that) The preceeding was a joke, and I happen to completely agree with what Azreal was saying in that post.

 

[DMF]

BTW, some folks mentioned Vioxx, and "correlations" and "causative factors."

Pays to know a little about what's going on there, with Cox-2 inhibitors (Vioxx, Celebrex, Bextra), and what happened with the research. Vioxx was the first of the Cox-2s, and the company that put it out did lots of long term studies. One of the studies they did was on arthritic patients that were trying to manage their pain. Alot of the patients were taking Aspirin, and getting the associated stomach problems with Aspirin. So you have aging people, with a variety of other risk factors for cardiac events (high BP, poor diet, little or no exercise, smoking, etc.), and replace their regular Aspirin intake with a Cox-2. Now Aspirin, in addition to being a pain reliever, is also a blood thinner.

I'm guessing some of you bright folks can see where that might go. The cardiac events noted in the study aren't really caused by Vioxx, but rather by the fact that the patients were no longer taking large doses of Aspirin. Similar things have happened in other studies for all the Cox-2s. Which is why Celebrex is now on the hot seat. If you put people with risk factors for cardiac events on a new med, it may not be the new med causing problems, but rather the absence of the old med(s).

However, grieving familys, the press, and more importantly trial lawyers, can't be bothered with looking at the science, and form a lynch mob for the makers of those drugs. Once again big business is villified, and becomes an easy target.

Reminds of the law suits over silicone breast implants. Anyone familiar with the statistics surrounding that knows there is no real proof that the silicone implants caused any problems. The symptoms reported by women with implants related to the various conditions they said were caused by the implants, occur at the same rate they do in women without implants. However, the sick women wanted someone to blame, the press locked onto it, and trial lawyers fooled juries.

The same is true with Asbestos. The link between Asbestos and lung cancer is shakey at best. The studies linking Asbestos to lung cancer were based on data from ship builders that were spraying asbestos as fire proofing, and heat insulation. The problem there was this was in the 60s and 70s, and the vast majority of those workers were also smokers. And even those that weren't were breathing second hand smoke from their co-workers. Yet again, grieving familys, the press, and trial lawyers couldn't be bothered with the details.

One good case for trial lawyers, the press, and grieving familys is tobacco. Unlike the previous issues, tobacco was different in that many people (due to research funding from tobacco companies) were actually looking for other possible/probable causes for cancer. However, as more and more data came in, it became clear that tobacco was in fact causing cancer.

 

[joe sixpack]

Not that Big Pharma is blameless, but like the War on Drugs, I think most of the problem lies on the demand side. The Companies are just filling a need (for the most part).

When it comes to prescribed psychotropics, it is indeed "Big Pharma" and your local psychiatrist creating and filling the need. Millions of our kids would not be made consumers of these mind meds without mega bucks poured into their dissemination through TV and magazine adds, and doctors, school personnel, your friends parroting their sales pitch.

Why let death by suicide or violence and ruined lives get in the way of massive profits for the pharmaceutical companies and the junk science that is entrusted with our mental health.

This link relates suicide and violence to these mind drugs.
http://www.breggin.com/31-49.pdf

And this one details Eli Lilly's deceit.

http://www.breggin.com/Website Introduction to documents.pdf

Check this out as it relates to ADD or ADHD
http://www.adhdfraud.org/commentary/jensen.htm

From the horse's mouth:
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2005/images/01/03/eli.lilly.pdf

Now give Johnny his meds and off to school with him.

 

[c_yeager]

Has anyone considered that these kids might have been perfectly normal kids with a little too much piss and vinegar in them so their nonexistant parents put them on psychoactive drugs to calm them down and make them manageable?

I dont think so myself. You have to be wired a certain way to go out and kill a few dozen people and yourself just for grins. No amount of medication is going to put a person into that place. it might make the trip a bit shorter but, they were heading in that direction from day one.

 

[joe sixpack]

Try some Thorazine and call me in the morning.

Sorry for the flip comment. My only experiences with psychiatric drugs was once with LSD and another time with Thorazine which I had taken "recreation-ally" as a teenager.
I'm a pretty easy going amicable kind of a guy. After taking Thorazine
for the period of time I was under the influence about the only thing I could
think of was related to hate and death. I felt like the living-dead, a zombie
full of hate and devoid of any kind of humanity. If that "feeling" was going to be me for the rest of my life I would have ended it. Fortunately it dissipated about 24 hours later.

Unfortunately several of my friends had also taken this with me, but that is
another chapter more closely related to "Night Of The Living Dead". At least
none of them ate anyone perhaps in part due to the good citizens being armed with their SHTF guns.


cheers, js

 

[Roc_Kor]

I think medication and all this stuff is just as causative as guns. (Hence, it's not a big cause at all.) It's just that no one takes responsibility for their actions, or responsibility to get themselves or others the help they need.

 

[thorn726]

once years ago i was prescribed Paxil, which was a Huge mistake=

its Maio related , supposed to be anti-depressant/ anxiety.

turns out i wans't nearly imbalanced enough to need it.
so the few times i took a whole pill , HOLY HIGH.

and the thing is, I felt so good, so happy, I did things i would never normally do,
and thought it was all good. nothing violent or anything,
i had 2 girlfriends at once. not the biggest deal in the world for some people, but i am not like that at all, and worse, i remember feeling like not only could i get away with it, but i was so great i Deserved it, along with a lot of other general lack of conscience, and feeling seriuosly on drugs form those pills.
i stopped taking them pretty quick, even half was too much.

So i could definitely see people doing some very off the wall things and thinking they were not doing anything worng, along with all kinds of other
emotional side effects.

 

[JPL]

Paxil is an SSRI, which is quite different than an MAOI.

Paxil is related to Prozac, Zoloft, and others.

MAOIs have a wide range of side effects, and many foods should not be eaten when taking them.

 

[thorn726]

Paxil is an SSRI, which is quite different than an MAOI.

ok thanks, i knew it wasnt an MAOI, but thought it was the anti-Maoi or something.

makes sense, it works a lot different from prozac, which takes weeks to start working.
paxil was like an IV injection. instant loopy land

 

[R.H. Lee]

All of the anti depressant drugs are permanent solutions to temporary problems. Have you ever known anybody to recover from depression via drugs?

I thought not.

 

[Don Gwinn]

My sister was supposed to be depressed, but on Zoloft, she was downright dangerous. Hated everybody and didn't hesitate to slug whoever was in her way.

What seems to have mellowed her out and led to an end of depression was meeting her husband, moving out of mom and dad's house, finding a job she likes (instead of school, which she hated with a passion and flunked with alacrity.) She also went from heavy drinking to about normal for our family, which is next to nothing.

We didn't have abusive parents or anything, she just wasn't ever meant to live with someone else's rules--and honestly, dropping out of college was probably the best thing she ever did next to marrying her husband.

Not to give a long story where a short tale is needed, but medication was NEVER going to solve her problem.

 

[SteveS]

All of the anti depressant drugs are permanent solutions to temporary problems. Have you ever known anybody to recover from depression via drugs?

In some cases, yes. Some depression is temporary, such as grief over the loss of a family member, losing a job, etc. There is also depression that has no causal event, but is biologically based. For people in the first category, I would generally say that an anti-depressant is not appropriate. In the later category, an anti-depressant may be appropriate. It does not cure the person, but can allow them to function.

 

[JPL]

"makes sense, it works a lot different from prozac, which takes weeks to start working. paxil was like an IV injection. instant loopy land"

Most anti-depressants take up to several weeks to begin working.

Side effects, however, may come on rapidly.



"All of the anti depressant drugs are permanent solutions to temporary problems."

No, they're temporary solutions to what are hopefully temporary probems for MOST individuals.


"Have you ever known anybody to recover from depression via drugs?"

At the risk of being pilloried by the ignorant and prejudiced here who believe that their s___ doesn't stink and absolutely nothing like this could ever happen to them...

Yes.

Me.

So think again, and try to keep an open mind about it.