Interesting....Russians considering 7.62x39mm again?

[Evil Monkey]

I found this on google searching the A-91 assault rifle.

http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jiw/jiw_0429.html

A quote:

"Not only is it a bullpup design, but the choice of calibre turned away from the virtually automatic selection of the 5.45 × 45 mm cartridge back to 7.62 × 39 mm M1943. Indications have appeared in some Russian Federation military technology journals that the overall performance of the 5.45 mm round was found wanting during combat experiences in Afghanistan and elsewhere, so at least some within the Russian Federation military establishment considered re-adoption of the well-tried 7.62 × 39 mm M1943."

First of all, is "janes.com" a trusted source of info?

Second, if what was said is true, is there a possibility the Russians will go back to the 7.62 in large scale?

EDIT: there's an error, it's not 5.45x45mm, it's supposed to be 5.45x39mm. That kind of discredits the site...

 

[Limeyfellow]

Sounds like a type, since nato used 5.56x45mm ammo.

Not sure if the Russians will switch back for anything but limited use.

 

[Ash]

Janes should be pretty reliable.

Ash

 

[Vaarok]

Russia's now NATO, so I don't think it would be unreasonable to think they considered 5.56 rifles, despite already having the 5.45x39.

And looking at the AK103, it sure appears the Russians are far more enamoured with the M43 than any other intermediate round.

 

[hessy]

Russia is not NATO at all.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Janes is highly reputable.

And looking at the AK103, it sure appears the Russians are far more enamoured with the M43 than any other intermediate round.

I was under the impression that the century-series AKs were for the export market, and the Russian military continues to use the AK-74 as its standard for the Russian equivalent of Big Army.

 

[Ifishsum]

Jane's is widely considered to be one of the most reputable information and reference organizations - our military even uses their reference books. They generally know what is going on with a given country's military weapons and materiel.

Interesting about the possible revival of the 7.62X39.

 

[Crunker1337]

If they did, it would be good-- more milsurp 7.62x39mm would make shooting AKs cheap.
Let's not get into caliber wars here, but I am personally of the opinion that as a general military round, the 7.62x39mm is superior to 5.56mm NATO.

 

[Evil Monkey]

OK, so there seems to be a revival of 7.62......but how far will it go?

I've posted this before, The Russian Experience of Urban Combat
http://www.defence.gov.au/army/lwsc/AbstractsOnline/AAJournal/2004_S/AAJ_Dec_03_Insights_Andrews.pdf

On page 4 is reads:

"In its operations in Chechnya and Dagestan in 1999 and 2000, the Russian military also expressed a preference for organic heavy-calibre weapons in combined arms sub-units. As a result of the poor penetrating power of lower-calibre munitions, Russian soldiers in Chechnya
called for the replacement of the 5.45 mm RPK light machine-gun with
the full-power 7.62 mm PK series general-purpose machine-guns.
Thus, the global trend towards equipping forces with smaller and
lighter munitions has been found wanting in the urban battles in
Chechnya and Dagestan. Russian soldiers have preferred small arms that
use larger-calibre ammunition, such as the 7.62 mm AKM assault rifle, the 7.62mm SVD sniping rifle, the GP-25 40 mm under-barrel grenade launcher, the Pecheng machine-gun (a modernised PKM machine-gun), and the Vzlomshchik 12.7 mm heavy-calibre sniper rifle."

That's really something. In 2 other threads, there are arguments on how small caliber weapons are effective but the Russians think otherwise. I had a thread going a while about how 7.62 soviet would be better than 5.56mm in urban conflicts because of the higher chance of striking somebody behind cover. Some said it was negligible but the quote up there^ speaks for its self.

 

[Winger Ed.]

I thought it was a good article--
right up until it said, 'Russian soldiers prefer'.....
Thier govt. and military suppliers couldn't give a rusty rat's 'petunia' what thier soldiers prefer.

These are the same folks that decide their trooper's small arms,
as what kept playing around with Peroxide fuel for thier torpedos---
even after they had a few subs blown up by/with it during 'training excercises'.
(May those several hundred Russian Sub Mariners rest in peace)

I wonder if the Russians still place thier elite units behind the conscripted ones---
so they can better slaughter any draftees who try to retreat?

.

 

[stubbicatt]

Different tools for different jobs I guess.

The M43 cartridge is a good one, that's true enough. Our experiences in this recent unpleasantness have suggested to some that the 7.62 Nato is a better round than the 5.56, and there have been limited numbers of hybrid cartridges fielded in the M16 series rifles to improve on what is seen as poor performance by the 5.56 round.

I think the Brits were on to something good with their 6.5 mm short cartridge suggestion for the FAL just after WW2. Perhaps the next generation of projectile firing small arms will chamber such a round.

 

[H2O MAN]

is there a possibility the Russians will go back to the 7.62 in large scale?

I don't know about the Russians, but the US should go back to the 7.62mm in large scale. 7.62x51

 

[Roswell 1847]

First of all, is "janes.com" a trusted source of info?

Gee Monkey I thought you were up on all things military.

 

[jpwilly]

Our soldiers are already carrying the 7.62mm rifles...AK's, PSL's, M14's. Take a look at some of the pictures filtering back. You'll find our solders a quite resourcefull when the feel they need a bigger gun THEY PICK ONE UP OUT OF THE ENEMYS COLD DEAD HANDS!

Janes is well know for accurate information on the worlds military forces and what they are using etc.

We all know that a 7.62 will penetrate barriers (walls etc) when 5.56 won't. So instead of clearing houses from the outside we're forced to go inside or use grenades, bombs, and rockets to do that job.

Bringing back the 7.62x51mm or 7.62x39mm would help against barriers but then you have other issues to deal with in urban fighting. I would still prefer to see both the 5.56mm, a 7.62 MG, plus a couple designated Marksman 7.62 fielded in the same squad. Couldn't be that hard on logisticas considering all of the other stuff they have to deal with - what's a few more?

 

[HorseSoldier]

That's really something. In 2 other threads, there are arguments on how small caliber weapons are effective but the Russians think otherwise. I had a thread going a while about how 7.62 soviet would be better than 5.56mm in urban conflicts because of the higher chance of striking somebody behind cover. Some said it was negligible but the quote up there^ speaks for its self.

Might be worth noting that Russians TTPs for doing urban operations in Chechnya and our own are dissimilar. The right tool for their approach and the right tool for our approach may not be the same thing.

 

[VirgilCaine]

TTPs?

 

[Jeremy2171]

Our soldiers are already carrying the 7.62mm rifles...AK's, PSL's, M14's. Take a look at some of the pictures filtering back. You'll find our solders a quite resourcefull when the feel they need a bigger gun THEY PICK ONE UP OUT OF THE ENEMYS COLD DEAD HANDS!

They aren't carrying them now except for a few M14s in the hands of DM's.

 

[H2O MAN]

They aren't carrying them now except for a few M14s in the hands of DM's.

More are on the way!

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

won't surprise me any. my own experiments with an AR (shooting buddy has one) vs. my Mini-30 reveals no accuracy advantage at 100 yards on paper, but when pitted against 16 ga. sheet steel set on a slight angle the 5.56 slug will deflect while the 7.62 slug will penetrate. this is again at an angle, straight on the 5.56 pentrates. we didn't test multiple sheets. maybe later. stopped when testing on sloped plates. penetration advantage goes to the 7.62X39.

 

[MechAg94]

It may be that for a short barreled compact machine gun, they thought the 7.62X39 worked better or gave a better punch. Similar to us evaluating SMG's in .45 versus 9mm.

 

[Hoppy590]

more milsurp 7.62x39mm would make shooting AKs cheap

in a few years when they switch to something else. then yes we will return to the low demand, high supply. but right now we have relatively low surplus supply and low military demand. if military demand goes up. supply will be playing a catch up so that militarys can refil warehouses. only after those warehouses are full. and they begin to have a surplus ( meaning they cant even shoot the ammo fast enough at the ranges to make room for new;y dated ammo) will we see any surplus.

what we need is the UN and EU to stop being rediculous, and let the poor starving eastern european nations sell thier surplus ammo and arms to legal sources ( read US importers) instead of just crushing it down. if you crush a Makarov down for 50cents worth of scrap steel or sell it to Samco or Century for 100$ these govs may be better off.

also. get rind of the barrel ban and 922! ( whole nother rant)

 

[Quickill]

I don't know if this says anything or not, but when I was over in the sandbox the Iraqi police were being reformed and they were offered M-16's, A2's I belive and they would not have any part of it. They demanded AK-47's, of yugoslovian manufacture if I remeber correctly and Uncle Sam poined up the dough and bought them new AK's; which I found strange because the damn things were just laying around collecting dust in several Iraqi arsenals.

Now whether this was because of the inherent reliablity of the AK compared to the M-16 or that they felt the M-16 was insuficiant to drop a charging insurgent (Something I have seen all too frequently) I don't know.

 

[Cosmoline]

H20 man, that's one of the purtiest pics I've seen!

 

[elmerfudd]

Old Mikhail must be happy as a clam right now. Whenever you see him interviewed and someone brings up the AK74 he always mentions that the 5.45 was a serious mistake.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Yeah he said he wanted to "modernize 7.62 millimeter".

I can hear him now....

"You see!? I told you! I told you 7.62 was better but they said '5.45 or execution'!!!"

lol

Might be worth noting that Russians TTPs for doing urban operations in Chechnya and our own are dissimilar.

Could you go into detail on how they are not similar?