interesting self-defense incident

[old lady new shooter]

So today Colion Noir has a video of an incident in Atlanta. Two women walked home from a bar and on their way upstairs in their (or one of their's) apartment building, were ambushed by two female BG's who had entered the building shortly before them and gone up one flight further. One of the women thought it was weird that she didn't hear anything beyond the BG's going up the stairs, so she pulled out her gun. Her friend just continued walking down the hall. Next thing that happens, one of the female BG's starts running toward her with a gun drawn and pointed at her. The woman with the gun immediately turned and fired until the female BG turned and tried to run away despite being shot in the leg. Interested to hear opinions here after you watch the video which includes ring camera footage of the events and also snippets of an interview the defender gave.

One thing Colion said that I have to say hit home for me was that before this he might not have actually worried about being followed by two people wearing masks if they were female... I have to confess that personally I never think of a female BG either. (A female EDP, yeah maybe.) That's probably statistically reasonable but there's always the exception that proves the rule. So I think I have to change that.

Here's the link:

 

[JohnKSa]

Good comment by Mr. Noir toward the end of the video. Paraphrased: You don't have to go around looking around every corner like everyone is out to get you, just pay attention to your senses.

My general philosophy of situational awareness is similar: You don't need to live your life constantly expecting an attack, you just need to remain open to the idea that such a thing could happen.

A lot of people waste time and make poor decisions early in a situation by making excuses for what their senses are telling them is very wrong. They feel like something isn't right, but they dismiss the feeling because they're not open to the idea that a bad thing could happen to them. Time they could spend saving their life is wasted rationalizing away the warning signs. They don't take easy opportunities to minimize or eliminate the threat before it really develops into a catastrophe because they're still telling themselves that nothing bad is going to happen.

One other thing worth mentioning. The suspect who was shot, Dameka Malcom, broke a cop's leg by hitting him with her car in August of 2018 while trying to avoid arrest. She was 17 at the time.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/police-woman-arrested-for-pinning-officer-between-cars

Apparently whatever the penalty for that is, it's less than 4 years in prison because in March 2022 she was already back on the street posing a menace to society.

All that to say that while your self-defense situation may be your first violent encounter, your assailant may have considerably more experience in that regard.

 

[bdickens]

A lot of people waste time and make poor decisions early in a situation by making excuses for what their senses are telling them is very wrong. They feel like something isn't right, but they dismiss the feeling because they're not open to the idea that a bad thing could happen to them. Time they could spend saving their life is wasted rationalizing away the warning signs. They don't take easy opportunities to minimize or eliminate the threat before it really develops into a catastrophe because they're still telling themselves that nothing bad is going to

Bears repeating.

 

[bdickens]

Your gut never lies to you but your brain does.

 

[The Night Rider]

All that to say that while your self-defense situation may be your first violent encounter, your assailant may have considerably more experience in that regard.

There's been a pattern here for a while that people will go out and rob 4 or 5 7-Elevens in a row.

There are also reports in Pueblo (they haven't mentioned it in Colorado Springs yet but I'm sure it's happening here too) in which the police are arresting people who are out on bail for multiple crimes.

As I understand that they're being arrested, booked, bailed out, released arrested, booked, bailed out, released arrested, booked, bailed out, released and then they commit a major crime and the chief of police is on the news askng why was this person even on the streets?

I said all that to say that the first time you encounter a criminal ever you might not even be his (or her) first encounter of the night

 

[jdsingleshot]

OK...I'll bite. What is a BG? Bad guy, Big girl??? And while you're at it, what's an EDP? Everyday person? I haven't been under a rock, but apparently, I'm out of this loop. Please clue me in.

 

[21H40]

One thing Colion said that I have to say hit home for me was that before this he might not have actually worried about being followed by two people wearing masks if they were female... I have to confess that personally I never think of a female BG either.

After some reflection, I also fail this bias test. It surprises me, but, if I'm being honest with myself, it is there. I don't appreciate real life being different from my assumptions and expectations.

This is why I'm here - to learn about things, especially things outside of my own experience. Thanks for the lesson!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Good comment by Mr. Noir toward the end of the video. Paraphrased: You don't have to go around looking around every corner like everyone is out to get you, just pay attention to your senses.

My general philosophy of situational awareness is similar: You don't need to live your life constantly expecting an attack, you just need to remain open to the idea that such a thing could happen.

Well put.

If people are simply alert and pay attention to what their brain is telling them, they can pick up a LOT of actual signals in all the noise around us.

Quite often that "feeling" of uneasiness that people have occasionally is actually based on their mind having noticed something amiss, even at an unconscious level. It's not ESP.

A brother of mine likened this to some training he gave while in the Marines overseas in Japan. If you actually pay attention to what your mind is telling you, you can even pick out a perfectly quiet, unseen individual in the dark NOT by the noise they make, but by the noise they BLOCK by their very presence.

Training people to be aware of things like this and how to recognize and utilize it in a practical way was part of what he did.

What it sounds like in the OP is a practical demonstration of EXACTLY this kind of thing. Two people went up an extra flight of stairs...but then there were no logically following sounds of them continuing. No stairwell door opening, no further footsteps, no fading noises one would expect as people walked further away.

Kudos.

 

[old lady new shooter]

OK...I'll bite. What is a BG? Bad guy, Big girl??? And while you're at it, what's an EDP? Everyday person? I haven't been under a rock, but apparently, I'm out of this loop. Please clue me in.

BG = Bad Guy
EDP = Emotionally Disturbed Person

 

[AJC1]

It seems like this was a planed attack where they knew of the intended victim. Really bold if they knew she might be armed, but the gunwoman had a violent criminal history.

 

[old lady new shooter]

After some reflection, I also fail this bias test. It surprises me, but, if I'm being honest with myself, it is there. I don't appreciate real life being different from my assumptions and expectations.

This is why I'm here - to learn about things, especially things outside of my own experience. Thanks for the lesson!

Very happy to hear I contributed to someone's learning here!

Followup point occurs to me that men might have a psychological issue about shooting a female, even if she's attacking them. Since almost everyone here other than myself is a man, what do you guys think?

 

[old lady new shooter]

It seems like this was a planed attack where they knew of the intended victim. Really bold if they knew she might be armed, but the gunwoman had a violent criminal history.

Yes, she said in one of the interview clips that she suspects this was a hit job on her. Nothing mentioned about whether the fact that she carries is common knowledge. She apparently owns some type of cosmetics business, hard to believe the new style of business competition is to shoot the owner of a rival company, but I'm sadly getting to where not much surprises me any more.

 

[AJC1]

Very happy to hear I contributed to someone's learning here!

Followup point occurs to me that men might have a psychological issue about shooting a female, even if she's attacking them. Since almost everyone here other than myself is a man, what do you guys think?

If someone is shooting or attacking me or my kids none of that matters.

 

[Seedy Character]

Wow, I didn't realize Avon was that competitive.

An armed, screaming banshee comes running at me, I am not looking to determine it's pronoun. It is TARGET.

 

[dweis]

Threat analysis is a critical factor of self-defense tactics. I have a four level threat assessment method. The four levels are 1) no threat, 2) possible threat, 3) probable threat, 4) real threat. I would have to write a booklet to cover all types secondaries that my my method might be applied to. For the sake of brevity I will provide only four examples.

No Threat: Walking down the sidewalk you see a man and a boy standing about 30 yards away. The boy have a baseball glove on his hand and the man is resting a]his hand on a bat that is seated on the pavement. The man does not seem to notice me. He is only engaged with the boy.

Possible Threat: Same scenario as above but the man has the bat on his shoulder and is not engaged with the boy,

Probable Threat: same as the possible-threat scenario except that man keeps watching me as I approach.

Real Threat: Same as probable-threat except the man walks away from the boy and has the bat in his shoulder. He does not take his eyes off of me and continues to walk toward me.

As for someone behind me, I always consider it a probable threat.

 

[Buzznrose]

Very happy to hear I contributed to someone's learning here!

Followup point occurs to me that men might have a psychological issue about shooting a female, even if she's attacking them. Since almost everyone here other than myself is a man, what do you guys think?

Great thread…thanks OLNS!

I can see where I’ll have a slower reaction to a female attack than a male attack. Just how I was raised…but clearly can be a handicap in today’s society.

 

[AJC1]

The question that keeps popping up in my mind is, does she meet the requirement of avoidance and disengagement as she proceeds deeper into the senerio? She is moving towards her house (castle) so I can't immage that should, not discounting could be used against her.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Very happy to hear I contributed to someone's learning here!

Followup point occurs to me that men might have a psychological issue about shooting a female, even if she's attacking them. Since almost everyone here other than myself is a man, what do you guys think?

If there is a real fear for my life, then using deadly force wouldn't be a problem.

HOWEVER...I must admit that cultural indoctrination would probably have me hesitating fractionally longer.

That said...in general, an attack by an unarmed woman generally gives men more options than for unarmed men because of the general biological differences in strength and physical abilities. Bringing weapons into the picture, however, is another matter, given the types of weapons which could be brought to bear in an attack. A heavy club in the hands of the average woman presents a different level of threat than in the hands of the average man, for example, even though it ups the level of potential harm.

I kind of hate to say "It's all relative", but the plain fact of the matter is that it IS all relative. I have to perceive that the actual level of threat to me by the INDIVIDUAL is credible enough to reasonably justify the use of deadly force in return. The average woman attacking me with a firearm in hand would be more likely to push me over the "reasonable" line than the average woman with a heavy lead pipe. But the average man with the same weapons would be more likely to push me over that "reasonable" line in either scenario when compared to a woman.

 

[old lady new shooter]

The question that keeps popping up in my mind is, does she meet the requirement of avoidance and disengagement as she proceeds deeper into the senerio? She is moving towards her house (castle) so I can't immage that should, not discounting could be used against her.

If someone's already advancing toward you pointing a gun at you from a fairly short distance, I don't see a way to avoid engaging unless you just want to stand there and get shot. You can't outrun a bullet.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I kind of hate to say "It's all relative", but the plain fact of the matter is that it IS all relative. I have to perceive that the actual level of threat to me by the INDIVIDUAL is credible enough to reasonably justify the use of deadly force in return. The average woman attacking me with a firearm in hand would be more likely to push me over the "reasonable" line than the average woman with a heavy lead pipe. But the average man with the same weapons would be more likely to push me over that "reasonable" line in either scenario when compared to a woman.

I was with you until the last sentence. A woman pointing a gun at you wouldn't push you over the line as fast as a man pointing a gun at you?

 

[theotherwaldo]

"The female of the species is more deadly than the male.'
-Rudyard Kipling.

Also more likely to get away with it... .

 

[AJC1]

If someone's already advancing toward you pointing a gun at you from a fairly short distance, I don't see a way to avoid engaging unless you just want to stand there and get shot. You can't outrun a bullet.

She went up the stairs with a gun drawn, as seen on the ring cam. She could have just left. She walked up the stairs and across the platform knowing something was wrong and then the attackers came back down the stairs and across the platform. If it was a man they would say it was bravado driven. I never fault a person being attacked and wholly believe in stand your ground and castle doctrine. I'm pleased an aggressive DA didn't go after her.

 

[old lady new shooter]

She went up the stairs with a gun drawn, as seen on the ring cam. She could have just left. She walked up the stairs and across the platform knowing something was wrong and then the attackers came back down the stairs and across the platform. If it was a man they would say it was bravado driven. I never fault a person being attacked and wholly believe in stand your ground and castle doctrine. I'm pleased an aggressive DA didn't go after her.

I need to re-watch it, I was under the impression she pulled out her gun when she saw the gun pointed at her. BRB.

 

[old lady new shooter]

OK, I see she had it in her hand when she started down the hallway to her (or her friend's) apartment. We don't see her take it out, but at that point we also don't see the attackers. We do see her look up the stairs and then the assailant runs into the picture.

Could be she already took it out when she noticed them following her and her friend. Or that she took it out just before the video starts because she already perceived that the assailants had only gone up the first half of the staircase.

Maybe somebody here can find a longer video.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I was with you until the last sentence. A woman pointing a gun at you wouldn't push you over the line as fast as a man pointing a gun at you?

You're still with me, OLNS.

In the sentence prior, I postulated that a woman could easily be more of a credible threat with a gun than something else, like a heavy lead pipe. That last sentence was to contrast how the average man can generally be more of a credible threat to life and limb with ANY weapon than a woman.

This is because on average a man is physically better built for strength, speed, and power than a woman.

BOTH are most definitely very apt to be credible threats to life and limb with a firearm.