Interesting View On Gun Rights Debate

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From the article:
A series of relatively small tweaks, including restrictions on magazine capacity and a more robust firearm oversight regime, very well could save lives. Maybe not all at once, but over time, I agree with him: Lives would be saved by even modest firearm regulations

Those small tweaks never stop.Ending with eventual total confiscation. It's happened over and over .Britain and Australia can tell you about it.

No thanks. I can do without the tweaking and invasions onto the 2nd Amendment.
 
His short essay is better than most, but he still does miss some pretty important points.

If we are ever going to reach a consensus that is respectful of the rights of gun owners while also cognizant of the safety risk posed by the availability of firearms in the United States, we are going to have to spend ... more time grappling with the complex philosophy that animates the Second Amendment.
Why he expects or even hopes that there will ever be "consensus" I can't imagine. Unless he means something like a "practical consensus" which is little more than a recognition of current status quo. The gun control movement has all but died. A faded ghost of it's peak power in the '80s and early '90s. American society is very safe for most Americans (which does not include inner city youth and/or gang/criminal sub-culture) and the truth is there is no political will to enact stricter controls. That IS a practical consensus. We, the people, don't want more gun control in large enough numbers to make it happen. So it doesn't happen. There is never going to be a unanimous agreement which will silence the most die-hard voices, so if that's what he seeks by using the word "consensus" (i.e.: everyone pretty much is happy and there's no more struggle over this), he'll be eternally disappointed.

Frum's thesis ... he observes that arguments against modest regulation that are based on the premise that modest change will not end gun violence are inherently unsound. ... A series of relatively small tweaks, including restrictions on magazine capacity and a more robust firearm oversight regime, very well could save lives. ... Lives would be saved by even modest firearm regulations.
An utter failure of "truthy" reasoning. Only possible if the speaker really has no idea how firearms actually work.

Such points are typically lost amid the furor of intellectual and moral contempt that gun rights opponents have toward the Second Amendment crowd
Yes, those points, flawed as they are, and many others as well.

Most gun rights proponents don't oppose modest reforms because they're worried that if they can't have 50 rounds in a magazine, they'll be adversely affected
Wrong. I, and many others, would consider themselves adversely affected, in the extreme, if government imposes such restrictions. Not because I need 49 rounds or 51 or 32 or any other specific number, but because it is an acceptance of an utter lie -- that such restrictions are in any possible way an effective limitation on violence and a way to make the public safer -- and an allowance of a userpation of authority I fervently believe the government should not have. Now, sure, there are a lot of gun folks who rush to give up such limitations, trying to buy off the grabbers, but I think they're falling into the minority pretty fast.

Instead, they fear the slow erosion of their rights, a fear that is animated in no small part due to the Australian experience on this front. "Australia" is thus a dog whistle in the gun rights world, immediately signaling that the speaker has motives that are decidedly immodest.
Which is possibly his best point in the article, though I'm not sure he realizes it. If you look to Aus and Britain for ANY example of gun control policy, you are completely and irretrievably hoisting the black flag and will be seen as the enemy. Of course, this could be simply received as a strategy point, educating anti-gunners that they should avoid that talking point so as to keep their arguments "reasonable" sounding.

But the greatest disconnect in the gun rights debate today is not rhetorical, but rather substantive. At the heart of this disconnect is individual freedom.
Yes, that is true. But again, not necessarily only in the way that he presents it in the following paragraphs. The 'individual safety over public safety' point is valid, but really secondary to the REASON for the 2nd Amendment and what it truly signifies as a statement of political philosophy: that a Citizen holds the means and responsibility of righteous violence, and that the government does not solely lord that monopoly over the People.

I have never, ever met a gun owner who actually believed that more guns would make people safer on the whole.
Oh REALLY? I should introduce myself. :rolleyes:

The gun rights movement is about individual freedom and American individualism.
Partially...

These are people who believe in their right and obligation to control their own fate by carrying a firearm to protect themselves and those around them, even if that might disadvantage those who choose not to.
This is inarticulately stated, at best. My being armed or carrying a gun disadvantages NO ONE around me...except perhaps for violent criminals.

If he's making a broader statement about the availability of guns to me -- and thus to others, possibly of ill intent -- then he did not make that point clearly or convincingly.

Gun rights opponents seem to take the position that this is selfish. But there has always been a tension between what is good for the individual and what is good for the collective.
Of course, but he's missing AGAIN that we believe that gun rights and gun proliferation is GOOD for the collective as well as for the individual. In fact, it is VITAL. Vital to the nature and character of the American Citizenry.
 
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He badly misreads the gun issue if he thinks a 10-round capacity limit is a "small tweak"; it is huge infringement, and is one of the rocks at the bottom of the metaphorical slippery slope. A capacity limit of 30 or 40 might not affect a large percentage of gun owners, but a 10-round limit would likely impact 40+ million gun owners and a quarter-billion-plus magazines going back to the 1860s.

I suspect that his characterization of widely proposed mag limits as "tweaks" is subconscious wishful thinking, unless he is simply that ill-informed about civilian firearm capacities.
 
It rustles my jimmies to read the phrase "gun rights debate."
I hate that term. It means that gun rights are debatable.
The 2nd Amendment says [...] The Right to Keep and Bear Arms [...] Shall Not Be Infringed.
 
I still don't understand how the people who say limits of any kind will reduce the mass killings. It makes no sense. History has proven that if someone is determined to kill a lot of people, they will, one way or another. If the Sandy Hook killer couldn't get a gun he could have used a bomb or other form of destruction. The death toll could have been higher if he did. The Boston bomber did use a form of a bomb. He injured 200+ people. If he used a gun there would have been a lot less injury. OKC was a bomb. NYC was a bomb (not counting the planes), etc. Where are the cries for bomb control?

Obviously, the point is that it isn't the gun, it's the idiot bent on mass carnage. This fact seems to be lost on all of those who want total gun control by the government. They just don't get it and never will. They've sliced and diced us enough. NO MORE is the word from now on. They've done enough damage.
 
"There is never going to be a unanimous agreement which will silence the most die-hard voices, so if that's what he seeks by using the word "consensus" (i.e.: everyone pretty much is happy and there's no more struggle over this), he'll be eternally disappointed."

By 'consensus' these folks (and us) typically mean 'general agreement among the folks I interact with,' which is to say each side. Which is why 'consensus' so often translates into domination.

When no one you know voted for Richard Nixon, it's hard to come to a consensus amongst your peers that he was correctly selected to become president. However, there is a great sense of justification amongst the Tricky Dick voting crowd. Consensus through victory and/or domination --same as it ever was.

"Instead, they fear the slow erosion of their rights, a fear that is animated in no small part due to the Australian experience on this front."
...and about a dozen or so other historical examples, not to mention a solid century of identical progression towards disarmament in this country. And daily examples of the mask slipping and prominent politicians or even private citizens either A) openly demanding disarmament (EJ Dionne just a day ago), or B) asking for 'more' than they said would satisfy them previously (the current infatuation with background checks, when 'bans' were the previous preferred cure-all)

"If you look to Aus and Britain for ANY example of gun control policy, you are completely and irretrievably hoisting the black flag and will be seen as the enemy. Of course, this could be simply received as a strategy point, educating anti-gunners that they should avoid that talking point so as to keep their arguments "reasonable" sounding."
To be fair, if an anti-gunner can avoid an "Appeal to Tyrannical Injustice" in order to support their argument, they are empirically more reasonable :D

"I have never, ever met a gun owner who actually believed that more guns would make people safer on the whole"
I have never, ever, met a murderer --they don't exist.

"These are people who believe in their right and obligation to control their own fate by carrying a firearm to protect themselves and those around them, even if that might disadvantage those who choose not to."
That I rise to the challenges and risks of the world, and take it upon myself to bear the implements which can challenge them, it cannot possibly bear upon a random third party in any way, whatsoever. Unless, of course, they seek to engage me in single combat.

I think there is a lot of projection in our author's statement here, in that he experiences another's advantage as his personal disadvantage. The same logic underpinning such failures as communism and fascism. "Greed" is when you desire more for yourself than is proper; "envy" is when you simply desire that someone else not have what you crave. But what is odd is that his envy of other's self-defense could be resolved so readily, so simply, by a nearly brain-dead simple device of steel that doesn't cost half a damn...if only he could permit others the opportunity to do so along with him (by repealing gun control laws)

"But there has always been a tension between what is good for the individual and what is good for the collective."
I fully believe this author fails to realize the individual he his trading away for The Greater Good is himself. In his mind, it's always some other unknown guy, someone so unimportant he'll never even meet him, who can be incrementally sacrificed until nothing remains.

TCB
 
"I suspect that his characterization of widely proposed mag limits as "tweaks" is subconscious wishful thinking, unless he is simply that ill-informed about civilian firearm capacities."

Nixon-fallacy; these urbanites never see, never hear of, and will never meet gun owners in their lives. No one they know uses them. The only people they are told use them are the tiny fraction of the city-dominated state that scratch out an existence in the rural countryside, few and far between, and long ignored. They have no idea the shear scale of what they are seeking to manipulate. They think 500 rounds is an incalculable amount, when it may cost only a couple dozen dollars, depending. They think more than two types of guns is an armory, failing to understand that ARs are more specialized than insects or wrenches at this point. They think a single $40 Billion industry contributing a few tens of millions to lobby can wag the tail that is 100 million gun owners, in a country where presidential elections cost multiple billions. They think a few hundred, thousand, or ten thousand drones are capable of 'quelling' literal millions of domestic partisans in a sum-of-all-fears civil war scenario, rendering the 2nd Amendment irrelevant (though somehow still at the forefront of their minds).

TCB
 
Said by Sam1911:

The gun control movement has all but died. A faded ghost of it's peak power in the '80s and early '90s.

I can agree only somewhat at the Federal level....

But I have to disagree at the State level.

ETA: But I do agree that the public support for banning is far less than that time frame.
 
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doesnt seem interesting to me, sounds exactly like the average lefty argument of 'common sense restrictions' which never stop expanding. nope, not one step further, gun owners made critical errors in the past, the most egregious was in 1986. we cant back down any further, the restrictions are already far beyond common sense.
 
“The gun rights movement is about individual freedom and American individualism.”

This is the overarching statement in the article and the one in which I am in total agreement.

“Lives would be saved by even modest firearm regulations.”

While on the surface this is true, the author fails to acknowledge the number of “modest” federal and state firearms regulations that are already on the books. At what point does more “modest” gun laws become infringement. This point is woefully neglected and is the heart of the second amendment!

I disagree with the Sam’s notion that the gun control impetus is waning from years past. Our nation is becoming fractionalized by political ideology and gun rights are part of that fractionalization. No gun zones will expand from school boundaries to state boundaries if we are not vigilant.
 
"that was when the 2nd amendment received its first true infringement; the total ban on civilians purchasing new-production automatic weapons."
Might wanna see what 200$ was worth back in the 30's. It was a ban, always has been, and when time/inflation defeated it, another ban was introduced.

TCB
 
The mag limit folks argue that the smaller capacity gives you time to charge the killer at the reload. That's happened but it assume you weren't shot immediately. I don't find this the greatest plan for self-defense.

:barf:
 
Well, it is no surprise that someone who names David Frum as his mentor has some gross misconceptions about the gun issue. If anything, I'm surprised at the few points he did recognize.

But you'll notice that even this writer is advocating for "modest changes" (which he defines as expanding current restrictions on sales, banning magazines and some firearms) are all that is possible during his lifetime (implying that these modest changes will enable changes at some later date).

Finally, instead of acknowledging any of the burdensome amd ridiculous restrictions gun owners already deal with and advocating for any change of those he just calls on gun control proponents not to treat us like idiots and makes vague "Well, its more complicated than that" platitudes.
 
Academics & scholars .....

What irks many of these academics or scholars the most is they can't deny or ignore the fundemental implications of the US 2nd amendment. They also don't want to be viewed as taking away a citizen's rights. :uhoh:
These columnists & essayists also are fully aware of the significant issues of violent crime & terrorism. How is a citizen going to protect themselves or their family in a break-in, armed robbery or car-jacking? :confused:
This, at its core, weakens the argument many of these academics re: gun or gun safety issues. :rolleyes:

I'd add that many colonists & people involved with the American Revolution era; Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin, Patrick Henry, John Adams, etc all wrote & supported private gun ownership-personal defense in addition to(or along with) writing the 2nd Amendment.
 
...

I suspect that his characterization of widely proposed mag limits as "tweaks" is subconscious wishful thinking, unless he is simply that ill-informed about civilian firearm capacities.

Don't be so easy on the guy. It is simply a quest for "reasonable gun control" disguised by florid, non-aggressive, almost pleading prose. I see it as nothing more than a different approach to the same agenda. In the analysis, he has said nothing new.

Example: "When I gaze into your eyes, time stands still." "Your face could stop a clock." Is it flattery or is it mockery? In both cases, nothing is ticking.

Woody
 
I agree with Cowboy. This is the same arguments they all use, just spoken in a much meeker tone.
Why don't they ever understand that all they are pushing for is an ILLUSION of safety? They advocate building a massive gate on a fence that everyone can/will just step over. Metaphorically.
 
I see nothing more than a call for "common sense reforms," and some instructions to the antigunners as to why (the author believes) the gun control crowd has failed in recent years.

He hopes to reach a "consensus?" Hogwash. He ends his article with this:
Jeb Golinkin said:
But what liberals often fail to acknowledge and grapple with is the more difficult question of whether the government should have the authority to limit my ability to protect myself on account of the fact that this same freedom can be used by someone else to harm others.

That's a hard question, and one that does not lend itself to simple answers.
This kind of sounds like he has some sympathy for gun owners and gun rights supporters, but I don't buy it. For example, all of his talk about "small tweaks" . . . it's nothing more than another way to say "common sense regulations;" by "consensus," he means "compromise." We've heard these phrases over and over.
Jeb Golinkin said:
Frum's thesis is actually quite modest and incredibly important. Namely, he observes that arguments against modest regulation that are based on the premise that modest change will not end gun violence are inherently unsound. And on this point, Frum is absolutely right. A series of relatively small tweaks, including restrictions on magazine capacity and a more robust firearm oversight regime, very well could save lives. Maybe not all at once, but over time, I agree with him: Lives would be saved by even modest firearm regulations.
His assertion, that "lives would be saved," (not "could be saved") is aspirational, and we'd all like to see lives saved. However, he overlooks the possibility that lives might be lost, as well.

He also assumes victory on the point that "modest gun regulation" would end gun violence by calling arguments to the contrary "unsound." Note, however, that his claim of victory is, as far as I can tell, based solely on his agreement with Frum's position.

Also,
Jeb Golinkin said:
I have never, ever met a gun owner who actually believed that more guns would make people safer on the whole. What they do believe, particularly those with military backgrounds, is that their corner of the world is safer if they themselves have a gun. Failure to appreciate the difference is a major error.
Well, I've met gun owners who believe that. Furthermore, one of the reasons I have a gun is because I believe that my corner of the world is safer if I have a gun. So what? I have a wife and daughter and I think I have an obligation to protect them, if need be. What was the problem with that?


Finally,
Jeb Golinkin said:
I have never, ever met a gun owner who actually believed that more guns would make people safer on the whole.
I think he meant to say:
I have never, ever met a gun owner [snip].
 
The mention of Australia in any discussion of gun control always annoys me. Their gov. bought back/confiscated less than 750K guns from a population of less than 19M people in a country with a firearm ownership rate that's less than 1/13 of what it is here.
 
Until we as a society understand that it is people control, not gun control, that we need, all the gun control efforts are just peeing in the wind.
 
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