Introducing Black powder Cartridge Shooting

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Dave T

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Yesterday I went to the range to meet a friend who is a revolver shooter but only contemporary (20th & 21st Century) revolvers. He said he had read about the famous Southwestern lawman Jeff Milton carrying a belt gun and a cut down 45 in a shoulder holster under his shirt or vest. So, I brought along my 4-3/4" USFA single action and a 3" Sheriff's Model by the same maker for him to try out with black powder cartridges.

The ammunition was my hand loaded duplication of factory 45 Colt ammunition, in terms of ballistic performance. It has a 253g RNFP bullet cast from 1-20 alloy, as the originals were, over a charge of ~36g of FFFg black powder in modern Star-Line brass. This is to get the same performance as the original 40g charge in balloon head cases as loaded buy UMC and later Remington and was rated at 910 fps from a 7-1/2" "cavalry pistol". I've chronographed this hand load from a 7-1/2" barrel at 907 fps to 914 fps at different times. In the 4-3/4" it does about 860 fps and from the 3" 795 fps.

He shot the 4-3/4" "belt gun" first, one handed at my suggestion, and was surprised at the recoil and annoyed by the smoke, but pleased with the resounding clang the slug made when it hit the steel targets. When it came to the 3" his first comment was that it kicked more than the longer barreled gun. We discussed that this was largely due to the lighter weight from the reduced barrel length and the absence of and ejector rod and housing.

Not surprisingly he asked a number of questions about cleaning but my description of my simple soap and water cleaning method turned him off. Some what jokingly he said if he wanted that kind of abuse he would just shoot his 44 Magnum with two hands and it would be easier to clean up.

For sure I didn't make a convert but as I have done a number of times in the last year or so, another shooter was introduced to what it was like to shoot a single action with factory ammo in the 1880s. I've also done similar outings with my 1873 Winchester in 44 WCF loaded with black powder which everyone likes, but the most fun is introducing someone to the 1874 Sharps Business Rifle chambered in 50-90 Sharps Straight. They all complain about the recoil but it still puts a smile on their face.

Dave
 
I've shot 45 colt 235 grain lead bullets over about 35 grains of 3F Goex BP in old model Ruger Vaqueros (7 1/2 and 4 5/8 inch barrels), Remington '58s with 8 inch barrels (via conversion cylinders) and an Uberti S&W New model #3 with 6 1/2 inch barrel. None could be called 'comfortable or pleasurable' for plinking in my opinion. The most bearable was the old model Vaquero with the 7 1/2 inch barrel. The last time I decided to take a BP newbie out for BP cartridge shooting, I took the old model Vaquero with the 7 1/2 inch barrel and some downloaded BP 45 colt rounds with 1.3 cc of 3F topped by .5 cc of filler. I explained to him that this was not as powerful as the round would have been in the Old West, but he didn't mind that. This was comfortable to shoot, made lots of smoke and boom, and the newbie young guy had a ball! He may not have been 'converted' to BP, but he said he wouldn't be adverse to a future BP outing!
 
I took my niece and her husband to the range when they visited. They are both know modern weapons (Army training). They enjoyed shooting my old mil-surp bolt action rifles and fell in love with the muzzleloaders. But they went nuts for a rolling block with 45-70 BP cartridges. (The look on their faces when they saw the 45-70 round versus the 5.56 ammo they are used to was 'interesting'.) When they started hitting regularly a gong at 200 yards their smiles could have lit up a city block. They even helped me clean the guns and fired cases. When they can afford one, I suspect there will be a 45-70 in their safe. In the meantime, I set them up with an old BP rifle, revolver, and the components to shoot them. I think we've got a couple of converts.

Honestly, I think I had more fun than they did.

Jeff
 
Johnson, I and many others I'm sure don't know what 1.3cc means, and won't take the time to look it up. Life would be so much easier if you would use measures like grains. :confused:
 
I and many others I'm sure don't know what 1.3cc means, and won't take the time to look it up
I would strongly counsel that you look up such terms when used on the Board.
They are used for a reason -- BP especially.
if you are to play in the game.

.
 
At least he is using the marked dipper volume without the "grains volume" nonsense.
But an avoirdupois number would have been more helpful.

Apropo which, is there a clear break somewhere in the range of .45 revolver loads from original to lighter period ammo, to Schofield, to CAS?
 
...is there a clear break somewhere in the range of .45 revolver loads from original to lighter period ammo, to Schofield, to CAS?

With the exception of gallery loads meant for indoor shooting or at carnivals, etc., the lightest load for the full length 45 Colt cartridge was the military's 30g behind a 250g RNFP lead projectile. It was ment to answer the burning question, "Sarge this pistol kicks too much!" That load was only in service for a short while before the whole Schofield debacle happened. The Schofield revolver fired the 45 S&W cartridge which was loaded with 28g of powder behind a 230g RNFP. This was eventually adopted as the 45 Government in the late 1870s, standardized on the same bullet and powder charge as the 45 S&W, and issued for both the Schofield and the Colt SAA. This continued until Ordinance adopted the smokeless 38 Colt, circa 1892.

Meanwhile, in the civilian market the original load of 40g of black powder under a 250-255g RNFP was still available. By the mid to late 1880s UMC and later Rem-UMC offered 45 Colts loaded with 40g of powder behind a 250g bullet while Winchester was selling rounds loaded with 38g of powder behind a 255g bullet. In my amateur research I have not come up with a clear explination for the difference in those two loadings but they persisted well into the 20th Century, some sources claiming Remington was still loading the black powder 45 Colt rounds up to WWII.

Dave
 
And I had a book with an old advertisement for a 35 grain load, too.
My question remains, where is the comfort level? Was Driftwood protecting his novice from a lot of recoil from the Government load?

In my CAS career, I usually shot .44 WCF smokeless, a 200 gr flat point at 840 fps revolver, 1100 fps rifle. Not unpleasant.
 
Back when I shot a lot of SASS around Kentucky and the close states, I would go to the Possum Trot club in northern Tennessee. They put on T-Rex matches. 44/40 and 45 LC only,10 or 12 ga. shotguns. Max weight bullet and black powder charge. No fillers or wads. Good thing there was a breeze most of the time. 5 stages on one day, 26 rds.+ per stage. Talkin about the reverb of them hills. Needed some mountain spring water afterwards. GOOD TIMES!!!:D
 
My question remains, where is the comfort level?

Jim,

The "comfort level" for 44 Magnum shooters is the 44 Special, the comfort level for 357 Magnum shooters is the 38 Special. For the black powder 45 Colt the comfort level for me would be the second Ordnance load of 30g behind a 250g bullet. If that isn't comfortable enough one could shoot 45 S&W rounds with 28g pushing a 230g bullet. That would be more equivalent to the 44 Spl, 38 Spl example given above.

But I offer all of this from my own perspective of wanting to relive history. I want to know what it was like to walk into a gun shop or mercantile in the 1880s and by a box of 45 Colt's cartridges, then go shoot them in my Colt SAA. That's what puts a smile on my face, and in a number of cases on the faces of folks I've introduce to black powder cartridge, even if it feels a bit brisk in the hand. (smile)

Dave
 
Jim,

The "comfort level" for 44 Magnum shooters is the 44 Special, the comfort level for 357 Magnum shooters is the 38 Special. For the black powder 45 Colt the comfort level for me would be the second Ordnance load of 30g behind a 250g bullet. If that isn't comfortable enough one could shoot 45 S&W rounds with 28g pushing a 230g bullet. That would be more equivalent to the 44 Spl, 38 Spl example given above.

But I offer all of this from my own perspective of wanting to relive history. I want to know what it was like to walk into a gun shop or mercantile in the 1880s and by a box of 45 Colt's cartridges, then go shoot them in my Colt SAA. That's what puts a smile on my face, and in a number of cases on the faces of folks I've introduce to black powder cartridge, even if it feels a bit brisk in the hand. (smile)

Dave
Dave,
Being a .44 magnum shooter for many years, I don't personally find my handloads of 35gr 3F behind a 250gr bullet to be anywhere near "brisk" or excessive compared to the .44RM rounds, and sounds like you don't either. Are these folks new to shooting in general (i.e. no prior experience with either .44RM or .357 mag) or just no experience with big bore BP handguns? Just curious...
 
It sounds like Sacramento Johnson might be using Lee scoops for his powder and filler measurements. If the scoops meet your needs they are very fast and convenient. I use them when loading BP cartridges in 45 Colt and 38 special.


And I had a book with an old advertisement for a 35 grain load, too.
My question remains, where is the comfort level? Was Driftwood protecting his novice from a lot of recoil from the Government load?

Winner Winner BullRunBear! I, too, find those Lee scoops very handy when loading 45 colt, 44-40 and 38-40 BP cartridge rounds.
Yes Mr. Watson, that is why I went with this lighter load. My newbie friend had only shot 9mm semi-autos in the past and had zero experience with plowhandle single actions and BP. This was a very easy-going load as I didn't want to cause any pain!
 
Johnson, I and many others I'm sure don't know what 1.3cc means, and won't take the time to look it up. Life would be so much easier if you would use measures like grains.

Howdy

CC means Cubic Centimeters. An old fashioned term to be sure because most folks today say milliliter, which is the exact same amount. A true volumetric measure, as opposed to the ridiculous grains/volume, which does not exist. The old Lee dipper sets were marked in Cubic Centimeters. They have been for a long, long time. Here is a photo of the components I use to load 45 Colt with Black Powder. Notice I am using a 2.2CC Lee dipper full of powder.

plLJabEnj.jpg




Regarding using grains to define Black Powder loads, it might interest you to know that not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. I made this chart up many years ago. It shows the actual grain weight of some of the charges I use most often in my cartridges loaded with Black Powder. So if I were to use 31.3 grains of Elephant FFg in my 45 Colt loads, there would probably be some airspace left inside, which would be very bad.

pmhtkUPmj.jpg



All powder measures portion out powder by volume. It does not matter what brand, they all use a cavity that fills up with powder to measure out a specific charge. With Smokeless powders the weight of the powder from lot to lot is held under very strict control, so that 10 grains of Whiz Bang will always generate the same pressure. The same cannot be said for Black Powder. Each manufacturer's powder varies slightly in weight, as can be seen from my chart. Portioning out 2.2CC of powder into my 45 Colt cartridges will always fill up the case the same amount, so I can achieve the same amount of compression from brand to brand, which is the most important part of loading with Black Powder. Yes, actual velocity will vary with different powders. If I am going for pin point long distance accuracy with my 45-70 Sharps, I will always use the same brand and granulation of powder, so I can be assured of consistent velocity.
 
And I had a book with an old advertisement for a 35 grain load, too.
My question remains, where is the comfort level? Was Driftwood protecting his novice from a lot of recoil from the Government load?

Wrong Johnson

Howdy Again

That 45 Colt load pictured above, is loaded with a 250 grain round nosed soft point bullet and 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg. As my chart shows, that is about 33.3 grains of powder. Modern brass does not have the same powder capacity as the old Balloon Head brass, so that is pretty much the maximum amount of powder I can stuff into modern Starline brass without compressing the powder more than I care to. I always like to compress the powder between 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. I could stuff more powder in if I wanted to, but I would have to compress the powder more. I don't see any point in doing so, that load provides plenty of smoke and recoil.

This photo shows two pieces of 45 Colt brass that I sectioned. On the left is an old Remington-UMC Balloon head case, on the right a modern Starline case. As can be seen, there is a bit more room in the old Balloon Head case for a few more grains of powder. I have a whole box of those old Balloon Head rounds and one of these days I keep meaning to load some up to see exactly how much more powder I can fit in there with the same amount of compression that I always like. I'm gussing probably only three or four more grains. If I ever get around to doing so I will post the results.


po2Wtjywj.jpg




This photo of my standard 45 Colt load out of a 45 Colt revolver shows my loads generate plenty of smoke and recoil. I don't really see the need to stuff in any more powder. The recoil is not enough to be punishing, it is simply stout. And I am used to shooting these loads, so they do not take me by surprise. I also don't bother adding filler for lighter loads. Messed with that a long time ago, it was more work than I cared for, loading in powder plus filler, these days I just fill up the case and seat the bullet.

polNePtOj.jpg




Here is a box of the old Frankford Arsenal 30 grain military loads. Notice the date on the box.

plpYHejkj.jpg




These were the old copper cased, Benet primed rounds. They look like rimfire cartridges but they are not. The priming compound is on the inside of the case, sandwiched between the bottom of the case and an anvil plate which was held in place by the cannelures near the bottom of the case. Here are a couple of the old rounds next to one of my modern reloads. In order to only hold 30 grains of powder, there would have had to be some sort of wadding between the powder and the bullet to take up the empty space resulting from the 30 grain load. Most likely the wadding would have been card board. No, I have not taken any apart to see what is inside and I do not intend to.

pnk54uT9j.jpg




Here is a photo showing the internal construction of the copper cased, Benet primed rounds. Not my photo, but used with permission from the guy who took it.

pnIRvdUMj.jpg




I keep getting in trouble on this board for calling this round 45 Schofield instead of 45 S&W, but that is what I am going to call it. Unlike the original 230 grain bullet, I use a custom 200 grain bullet, and my loading notebook says I am using 1.9CC of Schuetzen (about 28.5 grains). A much lighter load than my 45 Colt loads, I usually shoot this in my 1858 Remingtons with their cartridge conversion cylinders, because the Remington grip is not as pleasant to shoot with stout loads as the Colt grip.

pn3YsGptj.jpg




Here is a photo that some might find interesting. The two cartridges on the left are 45 Colts, the two on the right are 45 Schofields. The two in the center are original copper cased, Benet primed rounds, the two on the outside are my reloads.

pm0GKsJtj.jpg
 
Hey Guys,

Not trying to muddy the waters here but,
The Old Lee Dippers, the Red or Black sets were in Cubic Inches,
example 020 would be .020 CI and 258 would be .258 CI.
The Old Dippers were manufactured by Lee Custom Engineering Inc.
The company had a separation of sort and the New Dippers were manufactured by Lee Precision Inc. the current company.
Here's a chart showing the difference between the Old & New Dippers.

AntiqueSledMan.
dipperOldNewTable.jpg
 
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